Service Dogs vs Fakes: The Truth and How Fakes Hurt Everyone

The Truth About Service Dogs and How Fakes Hurt Everyone

 Announcer: Welcome to the Starlight Pet Talk Podcast, where we'll talk about and explore ways to help pet parents and future pet parents learn everything they need to know to have a happy and healthy relationship with their pet. So sit up and stay for Starlight Pet Talk, rescue, adoption and pet parenting done right.

 Amy Castro: Hello everybody and welcome to Starlight Pet Talk. I'm your host Amy Castro, and I think we've all seen the headlines lately of people attempting to take everything from peacocks to pigs onto airplanes and into restaurants and other public places and I'm not here to judge specific instances because I don't know what those people's situations were and I certainly don't know the situation of every single case of every person with a support animal.

 Amy Castro: But I do know for a fact that there are people out there who are passing their pets off as service animals, and as a result, they are truly hurting those who have a legitimate need for a service animal.  My guests today are experts on this subject, so I invited them here to help us navigate this issue and maybe understand a little bit better what a service animal is, who needs them, and the impact, the negative impact of fake service animals.

 Amy Castro: So my first guest is Elisa Hayes, and it took seven hospitals in four states spanning the continent and her brother's kidney to survive her catastrophic injuries following a horrific accident when she and her employees were hit by a semi-truck. Learning to go on living took a little bit more. Alisa has dedicated her life to helping others thrive amidst disabling circumstances, and she speaks at conferences internationally and consults with organizations on empathy fueled leadership, resilience, and inclusion.

 Amy Castro: She's also a certified ADA coordinator and an ordained minister training as a chaplain. My second guest, who I'm also super excited to have here today is Donna Mack. And Donna is an expert who works with organizations that want to increase profits and transform cultures by increasing disability access and inclusion.

Amy Castro: She's a member of the National Speakers Association, which we all are, which is awesome, that's how we know each other, where she and Elisa co-founded the Accessible NSA Community group promoting disability access and inclusion in the speaking and events industry. And she loves traveling with her beautiful black lab guide, Wella.

 Amy Castro: So please welcome my friend Donna, the disability diplomat, lab lover, and in her own words, always the last one chosen for Pictionary and my great friend Elisa Hayes. Thank you so much, ladies, for being here with us today. So let's,talk about service dogs, because I don't know if everyone listening is as confused as I was about the difference between, the different types of service dogs and then emotional support animals.

 Amy Castro: Can one of you speak to that to help clarify that a little bit? 

 Elisa Hayes: Donna, because you have a guide dog, which is what people first initially think of when they think of service dog, real legit service dogs. How about you start.

 Donna Mack: Okay, so service dogs are recognized under the Americans with Disabilities Act, which was passed in 1990, and for the purpose of giving people with disabilities free access to public services, so that we can pretty much go anywhere that anybody else can go. And they are dogs are the only animals that are recognized under the Americans with Disabilities Act as service animals. For a while there were some other animals, like there might be, for example, monkeys that were specially trained to help people who were, maybe had mobility impairments or whatever, help them with certain tasks. And there were miniature horses that would guide people. But now they only really recognize service dogs and they are dogs that are specifically trained to help people with disabilities mitigate various situations. And for me, that's Wella.

 Donna Mack: She's my guide. There are different laws that apply to service dogs versus emotional support animals, and what I think the public is confused about is that there are different laws that apply to different animals. The Americans with Disabilities Act, or ADA is not the only law that talks about 

 Donna Mack: service animals or assistance animals of some kind. There's also the Fair Housing Act and the Air Carrier Act, which guides travel restrictions and what kind of animals can be on planes, and so I think a lot of people, that's where the confusion comes in because for a long time the Air Carrier Act covered not only service dogs, but it covered emotional support animals and the Fair Housing Act still covers emotional support animals and emotional support animals are really kind of just there for comfort. I think for me at least, I think that there's a difference in if, if you really truly need an emotional support animal, then maybe the problem is semantics. Because what you probably really need is a psychiatric service dog, meaning a dog that can help you mitigate anxiety or depression or symptoms that are maybe more emotional in nature to keep you balanced. P T S D, that type of thing. And that would be legit in situations other than just housing.  

Elisa Hayes: And if I could  just jump on top of that? So one of the things I have, I have, because of the nature of the accident that I was in. I not only have a lot of physical injuries that create chronic pain. I also have P T S D and a traumatic brain injury and so for example relearning how to drive outrageously stressful, huge PTSD responses I would have, I would go into a dissociative state where I was terrified I was honestly kill somebody on the highway.

 Elisa Hayes: Having my dog with me is very grounding and that's something that service dogs can be trained to do. And so the line between emotional support, animal and or dog specifically as, Donna was pointing out, that that line between an emotional support dog and a service dog is fuzzy because a lot of it depends on since there's no certification body, there's no, you don't have to go and prove, for example, a lot of it depends on a person's ability to answer the right questions. And so in a place of public accommodation, and really this is true, whether you're talking about Fair Housing, Air Carrier Access Act, or the Americans with Disabilities Act, a person could only ask you two questions.

 Elisa Hayes: Is this dog with you due to a disability? And what task or work is the dog trained to perform? They don't have any right to go digging into your medical history. I don't have to explain to somebody, well, here's all the various reasons that my dog is a service dog. I can say yes, it's due to a disability and

 Elisa Hayes: And then the next answer, what task or work has the dog been  trained to perform? And those are two different categories that are distinct and we can talk about those if you want to. For dogs that are outside who are trained to do work as opposed to a task like Wella does tasks, she guides dogs that can do things.

 Elisa Hayes: Like open the refrigerator for you or turn on lights or go fetch your keys for you that sort of thing. Those are very specific tasks. Dogs that do work in terms of how they are with you, their way of being with you would be the way frequently PTSD dogs, if somebody doesn't want to disclose they have PTSD because that can be subject to a lot of discrimination, you can simply answer.

 Elisa Hayes: She provides medical assist. And that's a sufficient, a legally sufficient answer. So when I talk to organizations who are really concerned about how do we keep out fake service dogs, because that's really the, the big hullabaloo, my response is, well, you can't. Really.  It comes down to asking these two questions.

 Elisa Hayes: People do need to be able to know how to answer those questions, but anybody could look that up online and fake the answer. So it really comes down to how the dog behaves. It honestly comes down to dog training. Does the dog act like a service dog? And if the dog doesn't, then you cannot ever ask the person to leave.

 Elisa Hayes: You can ask the dog to be removed. So I advise organizations to say things like, and if we're having a bad dog day, understand we all have bad dog days. Sometimes we're going to need to ask the dog to, to leave the premises until the dog can come back having a good dog day. Because while there are very specific concrete laws, and as Donna said, those laws vary depending on where you are.

 Elisa Hayes: In the airport, not an airplane, those aren't subject to the Americans with Disabilities Act, that’s subject to the Air Carrier Access Act. Now, it gets fuzzy about where that line is, depending on where you are in the airport. And like all law, it gets kind of fuzzy. So the way to really simplify it for people,it's only dogs that are covered, unless you're talking about the Fair Housing Act and Air Carrier Access Act has come along with the ADA, because of the peacock, the very famous peacock incident.

Amy Castro: So, let me make sure I'm kind of understanding this, because when I thought about the two dividing lines, just based on my limited experience, is that, a service dog like Wella, I mean, you didn't just pick Willa up at a shelter and take her home and decide she was going to be your guide dog, Donna, right? I mean, she went through extensive training to perform the tasks that you need her to perform. Correct? 

 Donna Mack: Correct. In the school where I received Wella and where I was trained with Wella, they actually breed, they have breeding stock, they do swap out their breeding stock with some other very reputable schools just to keep everything, keep the gene pool fresh.

 Donna Mack: But she was trained from, I mean even before birth, she was born to do this job. But part of the reason that some of the legislation around this and the policies around this are a little sketchy because as Elisa, alluded, there's not really a lot of governing parameters around whatever training is required to have a service dog. Because Elisa's case was very different from mine. She didn't get Wella from a school. Her situation is entirely different, and it's for this reason that we don't have a set of parameters.

 Amy Castro: Yeah, so that's a good question. So, the, to me, like I said, a service dog performs a particular task, whereas and we'll get to the emotional support animals they provide emotional support.

Amy Castro: They're there for the person. They're not necessarily performing a concrete task or job. But don't they also have to be medically prescribed? Because that's what I had read. For a legit emotional support animal. 

 Donna Mack: Here's part of, I guess the point I was trying to make is that not everybody goes to a school to get their dog. Some people have a pet dog at home and all of a sudden they notice, maybe they have seizures or maybe they have, diabetes, and all of a sudden they notice that their dog is responding when their blood sugar is low or their dog responds to them in a certain way before they have a seizure.

 Donna Mack: And it's just they have a pet that they have a special bond with, and the dog all of a sudden is actually acting in the same responsible manner that a service dog would be acting in. And so under those circumstances, that is not an emotional support dog. That is in fact a service dog. But I think the key there is that,  that dog could come from a shelter, that dog could come from anywhere.

 Donna Mack: And because legislators did wisely look at that and say, oh, wow, there are different circumstances where these dogs can act in this responsible manner to really provide assistance to their handlers. That's why the guidelines are kind of fuzzy. So, sorry about that. I just didn't want to mislead anybody. 

 Amy Castro: No, no, no. And I think that's important to distinguish that there, there's, like you said, two categories of service dogs. Ones that are born and specifically bred. And let's be honest, what we more traditionally think of as a service dog, a guide dog for somebody that's visually impaired is probably one of the oldest recognized service animal from that standpoint. But now as things have become, like you said, we've got dogs that can detect cancer. We've got, like you said, there's dogs that can tell when somebody's getting ready to have an epileptic seizure of some kind. And they either inherently and here's what's I think so interesting and fascinating about dogs and the whole idea of being quote unquote trained to perform a specific task.

 Amy Castro: And we've talked about this in other episodes of the show, is that, you know, there are some dogs that maybe just because of their genetics or because of their nature are going to be more attuned to certain things and respond. And then based on that response, like you said, the dog notices that somebody's blood sugar level's getting low and they start acting funny, you know, differently. And then we reinforce that by telling them how wonderful they are when they did that, or we notice it and it's like, Hey, let's keep an eye on this. Let's see if this continues to happen. And then we notice it and reinforce it. That's what training is about. So I guess for clarification points, a service dog can be traditionally trained, bred, raised for a particular task, but that relationship and the training doesn't have to be formal all of the time. It doesn't have to be through a specific school. It could be the work that you do individually with your dog to perform certain tasks. 

 Elisa Hayes: And there's an important point to make here about disability inclusion because the reason so that people know this, that the reason there's no certifying body, there's no required medical prescription, there's no registry of service dogs is because all of those are either possible obstacles, impediments for people with disabilities getting the assistance that they need or in the case of registering, for example, service dogs, because this has come up a lot in Q and A that I've had with clients, that then becomes a registry of disabled people.

 Elisa Hayes: And that's creepy. So we don't do that . So it keeps coming back to does the dog behave the way they're supposed to? And we have to, and again, something I reinforce when I'm teaching about this, dogs are dogs. These are not machines. This is not my wheelchair , this is an actual living creature that just might have an accident in your building.

 Elisa Hayes: Because it's a dog. That doesn't mean that the handler is a bad human or hasn't trained the dog. It could just be something that dog ate and had a bad day or it’s something like that. So you're looking for, is there a pattern of behavior? Is there aggression toward other dogs or children or things like that?

 Elisa Hayes: Those are things service dogs should never, ever do. A service dog shouldn't be sitting in a group of people in a quiet setting and start barking uncontrollably. That's bad dog behavior. So Bell, she's a rescue pup, and when we got her, it was right before Christmas. And I couldn't just leave her alone at home.

 Elisa Hayes: She's super neurotic, has a lot of separation anxiety issues from her very traumatized past. They estimated she was about two when she was rescued from a high kill shelter in Southern California. And so I took her with me to go Christmas shopping with my kids because I didn't know what else to do with her.

 Elisa Hayes: I was like, well, I’ve got to take her with me. There was nobody who was going to be home. So I got this, kind of, in my wheelchair in this sort of dog carrier thing, so she could sit in my lap, but stay connected to me because I was very nervous about taking her places. And I absolutely was one of those people who totally lied.

 Elisa Hayes: I knew nothing about the law. I just knew I had a problem that I needed to solve with what do I do with my dog? And so she sat in my lap and as I was out in my wheelchair I noticed because since I don't have a spinal cord injury sitting for long periods of time hurts, my pelvis is all rebuilt out of metal and my left hip in particular because of missing muscle from long story hurts a lot.

 Elisa Hayes: And then I noticed this 11 pounds, I don't know. She might be up to 12 or 13 pounds now she's chunky of weighted heat on my left hip meant I hurt less. It was this, just what Donna was just describing, what we were talking about. This moment of me going, wait a minute. Wow, that feels a lot better.

 Elisa Hayes: Like right now she's sitting in my lap and it's warm and comforting because she's a dog, of course. And then I thought, well, could I take her in a public place? We went into a PF Changs. She just sat under the dining table, very politely, did nothing else. Just sat under the table. And I thought, wow, I wonder if I could train her.

 Elisa Hayes: And then I did the worst possible terrible thing. I needed to go to a conference and I took her on an airplane and she wasn't trained. I had never been on an airplane booth with her before. I'm like, she wasn't like in my mind, officially a service dog. I knew nothing about it, but I knew that I hurt less and that I was going to spend a lot of time sitting.

 Elisa Hayes: And it was a short trip, not too far away. I thought, I’m going take my chances. So I took her with me and she was fantastic. While I was there, I had a chance to talk to some friends who were dog trainers and we started talking about how to train, because I had had two rescue dogs before who we treated like farm dogs.

 Elisa Hayes: They weren't really trained to do anything. So while I was there, I started working on training her to do things that I needed for my benefit. I trained her to jump from the ground up into my lap in the wheelchair, which she w had been afraid of the wheels, and I had to teach her to stop being afraid of the wheels.

 Elisa Hayes: And I started training her to always be on my left side because I use a cane on my right. If I'm walking to never, ever run through a door ahead of me because I can't trip over her that would be very dangerous for me. And just, all of these different things I started training her to do, but it was really reinforcing her natural desire to just sit in my lap, because that's her happy place and she loves it.

 Elisa Hayes: She will spend. All day long, just happily in my lap. And then, because I didn't want to be one of those people who lies about service dogs, I did tons of research, which then got me into researching all of the Americans with Disabilities Act, which then led to a two year process of taking classes and studying and attending conferences and becoming a certified ADA coordinator.

 Elisa Hayes: You know, you fall down this rabbit hole. So really in that sense any dog that performs a task or work in this case with Bell that's sitting in my lap is her job. I've had this conversation with people in restaurants where I've been told by wait staff, your dog has to be under the table. And I said, actually, she doesn't because she's a service dog and her job is to sit in my lap.

 Elisa Hayes: This is all she'll do. I promise. Any dog that is doing something that is beneficial to a disability in order to be a service dog, it does have to be a legally recognized disability, which is a state of being that interferes with tasks of daily living, which that's a pretty broad category. If somebody can't leave their house because they have such severe anxiety and a dog helps calm down their nervous system enough that they can then get out and engage with the world, that's a disability and that's a legitimate work for the dog, 

 Donna Mack: Now the one thing, the one thing that the ADA does specify is that this is one way that you can sometimes tell if a dog is a legitimate service dog, because Elisa was talking about good dog behavior. Does the handler maintain relative control over their dog?  Because the ADA does require that you either have your dog leashed or harnessed. And in some cases, if your disability prevents your ability to leash or harness your dog that you still are able to have control with your voice over the dog and that the dog right is obedient and responsive to the handler.

Donna Mack: So I've had situations where I was in the grocery store one day and I don't know if my dog picked up something, but she became, I mean, she really became physically sick in the grocery store, and it was obvious that she was sick and that she wasn't a badly behaved dog. It was just a bad dog day. 

 Elisa Hayes: There's a few important clarifications. People are under vast misperceptions that there needs to be documentation, certification, registration, that a service dog has to wear a red harness that's totally made up. Anybody can buy it on Amazon. I bought one for my dog only as a visual shortcut for people, not even remotely required.

 Elisa Hayes: People sell, it's a complete scam. Sell cards, laminated even that you can show, all a scam. None of that is required. The important thing for example, for business owners, Donna and I both, we've been in lots of hotels, have had these experiences over and over and over for companies that have any sort of customer facing for restaurants, that sort of thing.

 Elisa Hayes: The number one important thing is, is that, staff responds by knowing what questions to ask and what are the acceptable answers and how to respond. If the first response out of somebody's mouth is, we don't allow pets, you're already wrong. Because if I come walking in with my scruffy, fluffy terrier, Chihuahua mix, whatever she is on a leash, no red harness, just come walking in with her to a hotel, and the first thing they want to do is charge me a pet fee or tell me they don't allow pets. Now we are already at odds with one another. Now they've put me under the burden of proof of proving that she's a service dog. I'm suggesting, and this is why I suggest to my clients, is that you flip the burden of proof.

 Elisa Hayes: The burden of proof then becomes, by assuming is just ask, is this dog, oh hi. You know, great to, great to have you here. I see you have a dog with you. Is this dog due to a disability? And if somebody says, well, no, then you say, okay, great. Fantastic. We welcome pets. That's going to be a pet fee of blah, blah, blah.

 Elisa Hayes: Or, whatever the policy is. If this person says yes, because most people right out of the gate, if they're just presented the question due to a disability, if they don't have a legitimate disability, it will, take them aback. They'll say what? No, I'm not disabled, because nobody really wants to own that label.

 Elisa Hayes: Even though both Donna and I could go on and on and on about how it's the only minority you can join at any time, anytime if you don't die first. That's it. So most people don't want to say they're disabled. So if the first question is just very kindly, Hey, is this dog due to a disability? If it's a legitimate service,

 Elisa Hayes: Then somebody will say, thank you for asking. Yes. And then they can say, great, thanks very much. What task or work is this dog trained to perform? And notice the word train is in there. It's not what task or work do they perform? What task or work are they trained to perform? Even if it's just sitting in my lap.

 Elisa Hayes: She is just what you said, Amy, she, she's trained to do that by lots of positive reinforcement. And even if I get up out of my wheelchair like I do on stage and I walk around, she will lay down on the chair and if she decides, she gets curious about something and sits up, I can turn and point at her from a distance and just point back down at the seat and she'll drop her rear end right back down onto the wheelchair seat that's training.

 Elisa Hayes: You ask those questions and then somebody, then you need to know what are the appropriate answers or the required answers, because a person doesn't have to go into great long narrative story detail. Only speakers will go into great long narrative story detail.

 Amy Castro: So, and because this, and that's, I think that's an excellent point a far as taking it from the business standpoint, I guess what I'm trying to do is to kind of clarify things from the perspective of your average person, in just knowing, and maybe it's none of our business to clarify it, maybe it's none of my business to try to clarify it, to force somebody to be in a pigeon hole as to what this is about.

 Amy Castro: I think it's, the issue is more about discerning legitimate need versus I just want to take my peacock with me everywhere I go kind of thing.  And so, but back to your point. Let's say that you said, you know, what was the first question again? The first question that the hotel person should ask?

Elisa Hayes: Is the dog due to a disability?

 Amy Castro: And I say it's my emotional support dog. Where do they go from there?

 Elisa Hayes: Okay, that's a great point. So then the response, say if you're anywhere other than in a housing situation, any other place of public accommodation, which it takes you. Hotels, restaurants, theme parks, the local county fair, Home Depot, wherever, then they say, I bet that your dog does wonderful things for you. However, unfortunately, the Americans with Disabilities Act does not cover emotional support animals and so then it becomes in anytime we leave our house, we're pretty much in a place of public accommodation. So it becomes the, the role, the job of people in business everywhere, all the way down to the 16 year old who is hired as a buser at the local restaurant or McDonald's or whatever, to know the most minimal level of what the law is and to be able to kindly express that. It doesn't mean that people will respond kindly. Somebody said, but I need my dog and it's a hundred degrees outside.

 Elisa Hayes: I can't just leave my dog in the car. And you respond empathetically. I get it. That is super rough. And try to diffuse with humor, even if it's bad humor. And, and then I could give all kinds of advice for businesses as to how to handle that situation, how to provide areas or something that could solve that problem.

Elisa Hayes: But for, for the average person who wants an emotional support animal, that frequently becomes a great big umbrella term for, I feel better as a human being when I have my animal with me. And if it is a significant debilitating psychiatric situation,  which can be severe anxiety, is why PTSD became classified  as a disability, because so many returning military vets had dogs that were classified as emotional support dogs, and they weren't receiving the kind of access that they needed.

 Elisa Hayes: So if somebody really thinks they need their dog with them, train your dog. That's great. Absolutely. You, your dog can be a service dog. You can call your dog a service dog. You can take your dog anywhere you darn well, please. You just have to have your dog really well trained and be very clear and first of all, be willing to own. Okay, I have a disability. That's no shame. I would love for more people to just own that, for that to be an okay thing. And then train your dog super well. Know exactly what it is your dog does for you that benefits you. Train your dog how to do that consistently and how to be in public spaces in ways that are under control and not in any way a threat to the health and safety of others around them.

 Amy Castro: Ok, so I think this is finally coming together in my head and it's making sense. So, just to kind of summarize and pull all this piece together, and then I want to get into the impact of the non legit. So, service dog is a trained dog that is trained to perform a specific task or work.

 Amy Castro: Then on the other end of the spectrum is the psychiatric service dog, who is also trained to perform a specific task, such as somebody's in a dissociative state, and they keep that person from walking into the street, they're trained to do that. Then you have this middle category of the emotional support dog who is a pet who provides emotional support for that person, and may or may not require from what you know from our research, may or may not require medical proof depending upon who you're dealing with and what state you live in and what the laws are. So it's a little more of a gray area, but the bottom line is if you have need for any of those three types of dogs, the service dog category, they're going to be trained.

Amy Castro: So if you truly have need for an emotional support animal then in order for it to even have a chance of being accepted publicly, the training is the key factor. Otherwise, it's just a pet and you're not, you know, you're going to run into a lot of issues trying to go various places and that's why the airlines have cracked down so much on emotional support animals because, these animals, whether they  truly provided emotional support for that person is almost irrelevant.

Amy Castro: It's that they can't be safely in public or appropriately in public, and therefore they're negatively impacting other people, and that's not going to fly because you're not protected under the umbrella of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Is that a fair way to sum it all up? 

Donna Mack: The only thing I would change is that psychiatric service dogs are a subset of service dogs. Just like guide dogs is a subset of service. I mean, there's no need to separate out psychiatric service dogs. Other than I guess if you, because hey, wouldn't we all rather take our pets with us wherever we go, you know?

Donna Mack: But the issue is if we're better able to really, honestly function and that dog is trained to perform a task that will help us better function out in the world confidently and safely then that dog's really falling under the category of service dog as opposed to I just feel more laid back because I have my pet with me.

Donna Mack: There's a difference and, it is sometimes blurry, but again, I've had quote unquote, what I would call fake service dogs growl at Wella and be aggressive toward her and the proof is in the behavior of the dog and how well trained they are to me. 

Amy Castro: Right, right. So let's talk about the impact of fake service animals, so the person, the person doesn't have a need for a service animal. They truly don't have a need for an emotional support animal. They just don't want to leave their dog at home or they, and I gave you all some examples of this that I previously, but person that I used to work with, an animal control officer who got a doctor to sign off on a need for emotional support, which was not really needed, so that she could have her animal in her apartment complex and not have to pay a pet deposit. And because the breed of dog was not allowed in that apartment complex. Another instance that has, come up, and again, these are personal ones that I know was a friend, nice person, wonderful person, and she's got a nice dog, but she was going to visit her parents and didn't want to leave the dog at home. So she got, and this was prior to the airlines cracking down on emotional support animals. But she got her doctor to sign a note saying I need this dog as an emotional support animal. So one might say, who cares? Right?  Who cares? For people that have a legitimate need for some type of an animal, whether service or emotional support. What is the impact of people scamming in those situations? 

Elisa Hayes: Well, I see just right off the bat, two things.  First of all, there is the threat that, as Donna said, there have been other dogs who've growled at Wella.

Elisa Hayes: I had Bell in an airport and when I'm in the airport, I usually am running her. I have her on leash next to my wheelchair, and I will wheel and let her get a lot of exercise because she does so much sitting and somebody was in the airport with their little dog and because they were there, they certainly told somebody that this was a legit service dog and from probably 30 feet away this dog took off at a hard run after Bell after my dog to attack her. And then Bell, she yanked and, was trying to get away to safety, she, because she wouldn't even fight back. She just trying to get away and she got all tangled up and out of her harness. If that dog had harmed my service dog, now I no longer have this dog who helps me with serious pain.

Elisa Hayes: That means I have to take more pain meds that impacts for me, for Donna, for anybody with, with a legitimate disability. It impacts our ability to function. So that is huge. The second thing is that if, if pretty much everybody has a air quote service dog, then makes disabilities irrelevant.

Elisa Hayes: If everybody has a disability, nobody has a disability. If everybody's, well, you know, I, I get a little bit uncomfortable when I'm in public places, so I need a service dog. Then that grossly delegitimizes Donna, who's visually impaired. Me, who had chronic pain and PTSD. So it's important that we do keep the distinctions between having a disability and not having a disability.

 Elisa Hayes: I just like you, I know people who have lied about their pets, because they don't want to pay the pet fee in a hotel, or they don't want to leave their dog with a border with a dog sitter at home, or whatever the case may be. And that just makes it harder to then show up with a service dog because then they become irrelevant and something that  various staff at hotels or wherever just rolls their eyes at and I can't even tell you how many people have treated me with this eye roll like I'm lying about my dog being a service dog. 

Donna Mack: Some of that is clearly because people are ignorant to what all service dogs can do, because I've had people who have, they've been really sincere and said, well, they didn't have a retriever, or they didn't have a shepherd or a retriever because I mean, clearly, again, guide dogs are the most recognizable kind of brand if you will, of service dog out there. So I've had to say, Hey, you don't know what those dogs do. There are people with all kinds of conditions, heart conditions, seizures, blood sugar conditions, chronic pain, PTSD dogs, and they don't have to be a specific breed. If you're going to have to have a dog to guide you or for balance or something like that, you're going to have to have a bigger dog. Yeah I love Bell, but I don't think Bell would be a very effective guide for me, 

Amy Castro: Bell would be floating in the air at the end of her harness or her device there because she's so little.

Amy Castro: Oh my goodness. And I think too in looking at the changes, for example, of the airlines going from accepting emotional support animals to not, for those people who truly legitimately need that, they've now been denied a service that they need because of so many instances of fake scenarios. As a matter of fact, this morning I was reading an article and I don't know when this was from here. I'm looking at it now. Actually it was from 2018, so it was a while ago. I would have to, I have to look and see what the latest was but that, Arizona was cracking down on fake service dogs to the point, and this is where it gets back to what you said, Elisa before about like, how do you prove it?

Amy Castro: But a fake service dog, they're finding people and making it illegal to misrepresent a pet as a service animal. So I think organizations and, communities are, and states obviously are trying to clarify a lot of this stuff, so it doesn't have that negative impact, but I think it's going to be a long time before we get all of this kind of clearly hashed out because it is so fluid at this point.

Elisa Hayes: Right? Well, it is important that for the general public, for just everybody, that we get this sorted out that we not have fake service dogs, things all the time because since it's so prevalent of the fake service dog, then other people treat people with disabilities really badly. I had a circumstance, an example on an airplane, and because I use a wheelchair, I'm always first on the plane and I always sit by the window so that other people don't have to climb over me. And I'm just sitting there with Bell in my lap and she's doing her thing. And she doesn't go in a carrier under the seat because again, her job is to sit in my lap.

Elisa Hayes: And this couple comes on the plane. They have the seats next to me. They stand there in the aisle, stop, wouldn't sit down, stood there and the wife says, my husband's allergic to dogs. And I said, well, when I check in for the flight at the gate attendant , they know, and the airline is informed in advance that I have a service dog and it's their responsibility, and they will inform people who are sitting near me if there's a problem and relocate your seats.

Elisa Hayes: Well, I'm sorry. You're going to have to move. And I said, okay. Now we're having this really uncomfortable situation where all the people around me are looking at me. They're looking at me, they're very angry. And I said I, she's a service dog. This is her job to sit in my lap. I promise you this is all she does.

Elisa Hayes: And they said, well, I'm just sorry. You're going to have to move. I said, actually, you can't ask that, but let's call a flight attendant. And so we call the flight attendant and then the flight attendant starts talking to me about me moving. So now, we're going to take the person with mobility disabilities, who is already just getting around is a hassle and hard, and creates more pain, and a guy, one row back said, and there was an empty seat next to him, he says, Hey, this seat, I think nobody's going to be sitting in this seat. If you would like, you can just move right here. So I ended up moving me and my dog and the stuff that I had under the seat in front of me, and it was fine.

Elisa Hayes: It wasn't this huge hassle, but now me, as the disabled person, I've become the so-called problem in this situation.  And these other people, while they've become, great antagonists in my story, they somehow got to have the access. They got to have whatever they wanted, and it was my job to work around them.  I mean, imagine somebody, if somebody showed up and said, I'm sorry, my husband doesn't like black people, I'm sorry. You're going to have to move. That's horrifying. We would never do that. Not anymore, right? But this is what happens to people with disabilities all the time. . 

Amy Castro: Wow. I mean that and I may not put this in the podcast, but I'm just curious when they saw your, I'm sure difficulty getting back from the window seat, getting back across, getting out, like any remorse whatsoever, that it's like, okay, this person's no legitimately disabled.

Elisa Hayes: No, no, no. None at, none at all. They were, incredibly grumpy. He hardly said a word. And then when I moved, they spent the rest of the flight chatting loudly and great big, happy, friendly voices to people around them while never saying a word to me. 

Amy Castro: Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think that's the whole point of why I wanted to do this episode is that, people don't realize, again, they're thinking, no harm, no foul.  I'm just taking my dog on a plane. What does it matter really if it's a real service dog or not? It's even if it's behaving, but that's, that's the point, is that any little incident just causes people who legitimately need that animal to be looked at, suspect, and it's not fair. 

Donna Mack: Yeah. I have a friend, who's actually a dog trainer, and this person was married and their spouse passed away and they, they had a dog and this individual takes their dog with them everywhere.

Donna Mack: Okay. The spouse has probably has been gone for four or five years, or so.They already had the dog when the spouse was alive. Well, what I've been told is, oh, well my dog is a service dog, and I'm thinking, surely you're mixing that up with a therapy dog. Well, and I have not asked what task the dog was trained to do, but apparently the dog was the late husband's service dog. So it's okay for his widow to take her very well trained dog everywhere.  I know that that dog would not misbehave in public. Okay. But I'm still just livid because this person thinks that's okay, and, you know, but it's like, I haven't said anything directly to them because they're a friend. You know, I don't want to end the friendship, but that just sets me off.

Donna Mack: I feel very, very violated. And you know, it's not your service dog, it's your late spouse's service dog. And I'm sorry, but I kind of think the ADA should stop there. 

Amy Castro: Yeah, well, you know, that would, to me, that's no different than my spouse is in a wheelchair, and so we have, handicap parking, but my spouse is not with me and I'm perfectly able-bodied , but yet I'm taking a handicap parking, taking a spot, and it's like, on one hand there's a legitimate negative impact, but then there's just the other side of it and I can't even begin to imagine, Donna, from your perspective, how that makes you feel. But it's like, a person who has a disability has to go through so much and they get this one little extra thing to help make their lives easier, and now some other person is taking advantage of that and it's like, that's not a right you have. Why do that? 

Elisa Hayes: Nowadays, who've become much, much, much more sensitive to issues. Of, civil rights and, minority rights, things like that. If they think about it in terms of race, make a mental translation, things get a lot clearer for people because they don't think about disabilities and people with disabilities in that way, they think of them more as, either wow, what a bummer that is. Or somebody we feel sorry for, or somebody who we find inspiring. But it's nothing that is a identifiable group of people who is a minority, that has needs for certain legal protections and rights. And service animals are one of those categories that if somebody is willing to say, absolutely I have a disability and they do, then fine.

Elisa Hayes: That, is fine. But if, they are saying, I want the rights without the cost that goes with it, I don't want to pay the price of admission.

Donna Mack: I'll trade you.

Elisa Hayes: Right? Taking my dog everywhere. That's great. That's, I can take my dog anywhere I want to. Fantastic. I also paid the price of admission and it was a pretty hefty price.

Elisa Hayes: So for somebody else to say, you know, I want to take my dog everywhere, but I want to, I don't want to pay the price, I don't want to have to take any of the other consequences that go with being a person with disabilities.

Amy Castro: Yeah, I think that right there is the, the key to the whole shebang, you know?

Donna Mack: Yes, ma'am.

Amy Castro: I mean, that's just, it is such an excellent, yeah. Yeah. 

Elisa Hayes:  So, we need to be really compassionate and empathetic towards people in ways that's authentic, that validates, their existence, their experience, their right to participate in society at an equitable level. And anytime we either say something, or in the case of talking about service dogs, that we, especially people who do it intentionally, just blur over those lines because we think it doesn't really matter all that much, then we are negating the unique experiences of other people and more specifically experiences that cause suffering. And that's being an unkind, unloving person in need of a lot of emotional maturity and growth.

Amy Castro: Yeah, a lot of people out there now. Oh, wow. This is, a lot. We covered, in this in this recording. Any final thoughts that you want to leave with to kind of wrap things up?

Donna Mack: I don't know. I mean, for me, having Wella has really changed my life in ways that I never would've imagined. I mean, it's awesome because walking with a dog and walking with a cane are very different. When you walk with a cane, the cane shows you obstacles and that's, the kind of feedback that somebody gets from their cane. But a dog, takes away all those obstacles, gets me there a whole lot more smoothly and a lot more quickly. But the part that I didn't expect with her is that before Wella,  I could take a mile, two mile walk. Nobody would ever speak to me. and now every time I go out, people speak to me. People compliment me on my gorgeous Labrador or on how well behaved she is.

Donna Mack: Or we go to a restaurant and it’s funny because she's under the table and then when I go to leave, people are like, oh my gosh, there's a dog. I had no idea it was a dog under the table. So, she's really freed me up and added just so much quality to my life and we’ve talked a lot today about people passing off fake service dogs and interfering with service dogs' work.

Donna Mack: But, to me, I would say, go out and support those organizations that do train service dogs and be aware of the signs of fake service dogs. But, but mostly just support those of us who have legitimate service dogs behave in a respectful manner toward us. Please do not interact with our dogs because as I tell my audiences or my kid audiences, I will tell them, okay, so when she's in harness, these are her work clothes.

Donna Mack: When she's not in a harness, she's okay to play. What I tell my adult audiences is when she's in harness, she's in her work clothes and when her harness is off, she's naked and ready to party. But going back to the kid audiences, I try to explain and say, look, okay, most parents love to have a great big bear hug from their kids. Okay? Your parents love that but If you're driving down the road and all of a sudden you decide to unbuckle outta your safety seat, your parents driving and you decide that you want to give them a bear hug at that time, that could put you in danger. You guys could  y'all could get really hurt. And so it's better to wait and give the hug at a time when you're not, when your parent's not driving, when you're at home, and it's a safe place.

Donna Mack: And that's just like it is trying to interact with our dogs because if you try to interact with Wella while she's trying to do her work, it could put us in danger. So be sure you ask and be sure she's not in harness.

Amy Castro: That's a great point. We could do a whole episode on that and people's disrespect, and I almost was going to go down there.  It's like, okay, we're going to save that for another episode. But I'm glad you made that point, as in closing, just to plant that seed with people because it's not a pet. Yeah, it's a service animal.  

Elisa Hayes: And I would just echo what Donna said because we said lots of very, very serious things because there are very, very serious reasons to have service docs, but when I started traveling with Bell with her in my wheelchair. It's the same thing with Donna says a wheelchair is a mobility device just like a cane. It helps me be able to get around and people notice the chair, they notice the device, and there's a lot of story in people's heads about the chair and then I feel that, and it changes how I interact with people. When I have a dog in my lap that completely changes how people look at me. It changes their energy towards me. It changes my energy towards them. I am happier. They're happier. We're all happier because it’s a dog and the dog is adorable. Just don't interfere with her work, but smile and enjoy the, the joy that we get from having these incredible animals that will do the jobs that we want them to do, and bring so much joy to us, to other people. And, and that, that's the really fun part. I want to be able to go out in the world with my dog. And if people ask me, kids always ask, can I pet your dog? There's, there's a way that we handle that. Like you said, we could do a whole episode on just that. It's not like they're off limits, but being respectful and then we all get along and the world's a happier place.

Amy Castro: Wow. This, and I've said this a couple of times on a couple of episodes, but this one in particular, I mean, I feel like I've learned so much, even though I thought coming into it that I kind of knew, like, I know this is where this is going to go and I think I know what I'm talking about on these things, but just some of the perspectives that you have that you have shared really opened my eyes to not being so cynical about the whole thing, because that's kind of where I went in, you know, I went into this episode thinking I want to teach a lesson to all those people that have fake service dogs. But at the same time, it's really kind of broadened my horizons as to the issue looking at it from so many, so many different perspectives.

Amy Castro: And I thank you both so much, Elisa and Donna, for being my guest here today, for sharing your stories and being vulnerable and to share your information just to help people better understand, like you said, Elisa, just so that the world can be a kinder  and a better place.

Elisa Hayes: Thank you. It’s a super pleasure to be here. I have loved it. Thank you.

Donna Mack: This has been great. Thanks Amy.

Amy Castro: Thanks so much. All right. Well, for those of you who are listening, thank you so much for listening to another episode of Starlight Pet Talk. And if you don't do anything else this week, make sure you give your pet not a service dog. Give your pet a big hug for us.

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