Cognitive Behavioral Therapy: Insights from Billie Groom

 Welcome to the Starlight Pet Talk podcast, where we'll talk about and explore ways to help pet parents and future pet parents learn everything they need to know to have a happy and healthy relationship with their pet. So sit up and stay for Starlight Pet Talk. Rescue, adoption, and pet parenting done right.

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Our merchandise is the perfect way to show your support for your favorite pet podcast and Animal Rescue at the same time. So what are you waiting for? Just visit our website at www. starlightpettalk. com to order your merchandise today. Welcome to Starlight Pet Talk. I'm your host, Amy Castro. Anyone who's had a puppy knows that we get super excited when we get a new puppy.

We go into research mode and doing our training and making sure that we're doing all the right things to raise our puppy the right way. And sometimes we get to that point where we're like, we're done. The puppy is trained. It's all good to go. Knows sit, knows come, knows to lay down, et cetera, et cetera.

But something sometimes happens along the way, right about what would be considered a dog's teenage years, where things change. Either new behaviors start to come up that are unwanted. Or the behaviors that they used to know, suddenly they seem to forget and you're wondering what the heck is going on.

Well, a lot of that can be explained by better understanding how dogs brains work and how they process information. So my guest today is Billy Groom. And Billy is an expert in canine cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of Upward Dogology, which is a scientifically proven method for addressing behaviors common Amongst adolescent dogs and dogs with disadvantaged pasts.

Billy is a graduate of the University of Western Ontario and recently completed the PhD course called Animal Cognition and Emotions to Improve Animal Welfare at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences. And she's currently enrolled in the PhD School of Leadership and Change at Antioch University.

Billy began working with dogs over three decades ago and her goal was to understand the behavior challenges that face pet parents and rescue organizations that often lead people to either surrender, euthanize, or return the dogs that they have brought into their homes. Her extensive work led to a successful career as a behaviorist, as well as an award winning book, a podcast, and many awards and accolades, including recognition from the LA Times, the Toronto Humane Society, and she's the recipient of the Global Business Award in 2021.

She's a guest on many shows and podcasts, including Roku TV and The Vet Blast, and is featured in Psychology Today magazine by Mark Bekoff. And The Vet Blast. She has spoken at the University of Regina, the Animal Science and Veterinary Medicine Conference. And the Animal Behavior Conference in 2022 and 2023.

Welcome to the show, Billy. Thank you so much. And thank you for that lovely introduction. I'm really happy to be here. I know you and I have been kind of playing email tag for lack of a better term for a while here and kind of going back and forth about what we're going to talk about today. But what I found fascinating about you was what your area of focus is.

So. Before we get into the specifics about the age target that we're talking about, can you tell us a little bit about what canine cognitive behavioral therapy actually is? Sure. It's, it is a scientifically proven method that follows the guidelines of cognitive behavioral therapy, which is used on humans all the time.

So common methods adhere to the principles of conditioning methods. So you have operant counter classical conditioning. The method I use follows the principles of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and a lot of your listeners would probably know what that is from a human perspective. CBT, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, CBT assumes that the subject is doing a behavior based on their perception of their need to do that behavior, that it's coming from a place of fear or anxiety or simply a behavior that's worked for them in the past, and so they're going to continue to do it just as with humans do.

So it's a lot of habit changing and changing the mindset. CBT changes. It, it helps the subject's perception of the need to feel a certain way or to do a behavior, but doesn't necessarily change the perception of the stimuli. So you could still dislike someone that you dislike, but you realize that you don't need to beat them up or yell at them or be scared, or you still might overall have anxiety with heights.

But you can reset your brain and say, okay, yes, right now I am standing on a picnic table or on a balcony or wherever. But you have that ability to process it through and work it through and not go into this state of panic that causes an unwanted behavior or a, and this is why operant conditioning is particularly effective with puppies because it teaches right from wrong.

That's what it's designed to do. It's designed to teach right from wrong and to encourage good thought patterns. And puppies love it. It's very, very good for puppies. But once you start working with dogs that are in that adolescent stage, they may know right from wrong, they may have been in great homes, but they hit that adolescent stage and they start to process differently.

And that's where CBT might be more effective, just based on the psychology driving it. Let's just take that puppy example for just a minute and we're trying to house train the puppy. So obviously there are different methods. So there, you know, there's the school of thought, which I think is pretty much old school and hopefully nobody believes this anymore, but the negative feedback for the behavior.

So puppy pees on the floor, you swap the puppy with the newspaper, you put their nose in it and tell them no, and then you put them outside. Hopefully nobody's doing that anymore. Please tell me you're not. Alternative methods obviously are to, you know, Take the puppy outside and reward the puppy and lavish attention or treats or whatever when they potty outside You know with it from a positive standpoint.

So how would cognitive behavior therapy be different? I love this example. Is it part of that process? No, no, no, no, it's but yeah, I love this example because actually That negative method is the same method as the positive method. It's operant conditioning. So operant conditioning, those aren't two different methods.

Those are the same method. It's just the way it's applied depends on. As you said, hopefully they're not doing the negative ones anymore, but it is, it is operate conditioning technically again from a psychology perspective uses both of those. Okay, but you can just use one and I fully agree that with house training a puppy.

If you just use the positive reinforcement, there's a huge success rate, and it's much better in the long run and that goes across the board, not just house training, but because we're talking about house training. So I love this example because let's say you, there's a couple different things. Let's say you get in a rescue dog that is older and maybe never been in a home.

So let's, let's throw out a year. Yeah, let's throw out there a year and never been in a home. So of course you want a house train. I would start with positive reinforcement. See if it works. It could, it very well could. If it doesn't, if the dog has anxiety, we're not house training, we're addressing the anxiety using CBT and then ultimately the house training follows suit.

So if the dog is anxious or nervous of the outside or the outdoor environment, or it could be that the dog doesn't realize the connection between finding the person or going to the door, the dog realizes I'm supposed to go outside. But I don't know how to get outside because I've never been in a home, so I don't know how to get that stupid door open.

Mmm, right. So I got to go get the person or I have to, so some people might use a bell or something like that. Again, that's not cognitive behavioral therapy, but CBT would implement exercises that create a bond and change the dog's perception of the human's ability to realize what's important to them and what they're trying to say.

And those are exercises that reach the cognitive side of the brain so that the dog views the person as someone that they go to. And those exercises aren't challenging, they aren't difficult. They're dependent on the situation, the house setup, the people, their timing. They're dependent on it mostly on what the dog already knows and that the dogs...

So when I say cognitive skills, puppies use cognitive skills mostly to watch what's going on and to learn, and they, they have memory. Of course, they remember their name. They remember what house they live in. They remember their, their friends or if a place is good. So you're harnessing those cognitive skills so that they have good thought patterns.

When a dog reaches adolescence, It's the same with humans, those cognitive skills develop and they start, do I want to do that? Do I not want to do that? What if I don't do that? So if you're talking about a dog that had a conventional good upbringing, good for, you know, the people did everything right, so to speak, you know, they're not professionals, but they, they did everything right.

And it's a good dog at puppy hood. When they start hitting adolescents, they know it's wrong to grab the sock. They know what's wrong to jump. They know what come when called is. They're just, nah, what if I don't? What if I don't care? What happens if I don't? And then you get people that start going over to that dark side because what they were doing wasn't working.

It's no longer working. It was working in puppyhood. It's no longer working now. And unfortunately, they may start to go to that dark side and use some of those other, just because they're frustrated and they don't know what to do. That would be an indication that you want to flip over to CBT. Where we harness those cognitive skills, we work with that side of the brain.

It's really grounded in decision making. So same as you would do with your children. So I've worked with psychologists on this and one of the best examples I've ever got, it's comparison to humans. There's tons of comparisons to humans when, when we're talking about these methods. So When you have a three year old and you're teaching the concept of sharing that you're teaching them, it's good to share.

You want to praise them for sharing. You want to teach them. It's actually a physical action like sit or stay or come. It's a physical action that they do. Yeah, because they've got to physically give up whatever they've got in their hand. Yeah, and then they get praised for it. Oh, wow, okay, so I take my crayons over to my sister and my mommy and daddy are really happy.

So they know what sharing is. They understand what it is as an action. When they get to four years old, it becomes more of a concept. They start to process it differently. What happens if I don't share? Or I don't wanna. Yeah. Yeah. And is anyone gonna do anything about it? Or do I have options? Can I share half my crayons?

Or can I share my crayons for half an hour? And then you get that development in skills where, right now it's very popular in dog training is providing options. This is different than CBT, so they might provide options as in a blue ball or a red ball, or you can go left on a walk or right on a walk, you know, recognizing autonomy and agency, this type of thing.

This is good. Same with canine enrichment. It's good. It uses cognitive skills. It's advancing. It's not a method that induces decision making. So when we're inducing decision making, we're establishing exercises. that practice the brain making these decisions and being okay with change in routine or change in habit because a lot of behaviors are stemming from what's called cognitive appraisal.

So a dog's ability to appraise a situation, appraise a stimuli, and they've perhaps been there before and done that before. So it would be like you going into an area and your expectations of what happens in that area is not happening. So an example, if you, if you go into a bar and it's somewhat loud and people are excited and they're drunk, you're probably not going to be too thrown off by that.

It's a bar and you walked in there, you expected that to happen, right? It's a bar on a Saturday night. But if you walk into a library and that's happening, your emotions and based on your perception of what should happen would be different. So that's your cognitive appraisal of, of a situation. So dogs do that more so than they do based on brain development during puppyhood.

Puppyhood, the more learning. That's why, if we were to take the human example, you would take them to a bar and you would take them to a library, right? So, but with dogs, we take them to dog parks or on a walk or to our friends and families or camping or on road trips or things that we want to do as a family.

with our dogs so that they, you know, baseball game or what have you, so that they get used to that. And as they develop and grow, it's like, yeah, yeah, I get it. I'm at a baseball game and there's a person that stands up there and hits a ball with a bat, but I don't chase that ball. But in the yard, when a ball is thrown, I chase that ball.

They can, they can process that and see the difference. That's why you want to socialize. That is such an excellent point is that, you know, if they're not exposed to different environments, then how do you ever expect them to make that adaptation? And that's why you get pet parents, owners, whatever you want to call them.

Like, I can't take my dog out in public, or I got to put my dog away when company comes over because they act. Crazy, well, they've not had a chance to process and work through how are they supposed to act in that environment. I also want to go back to the idea of that transition from puppyhood to just taking it in and learning, and then where they're starting to get that ability to make decisions on their own, and I think that's where People start getting into trouble with their pets, so people go through this new puppy thing and it's all about training the puppy.

We're gonna potty train it and we're gonna teach it to come and look, oh it gives its paw and we taught it to sit and everybody's really excited and they get the puppy to this certain level and it's trained, like it's done. And then a certain amount of time later, suddenly it's like, why is this now happening?

Why is that not happening? And you just basically explained it. And that's just, it, it makes such sense. It's the same thing with your kids knowing right and wrong when they were little and like, why was a kid so good and did what they were told at this age? And now they're saying no, or now they're doing it halfway, you know, whereas they used to willingly do it.

And it's, it's part of their development. And I don't think people know that I really, I think they think once they got that dog trained and it knows sit, it knows sit. And just like you said, that negative behavior, because now I get pissed off, excuse my language, but I get pissed off because I know my dog knows come.

He's known come for a year, you know, over a year now, or for six months he's been coming and now he's refusing to come. We're not playing that game, and then you get mad. Right, and, and I think a lot of it is the industry. There's a scientific study done by Naomi Harvey, where they used basic treat exercises, positive reinforcement based exercises, with dogs that would do these exercises during puppyhood, and now the dogs were, I believe, around the 8 months a year, maybe up to 15 months.

Their ability to do those, or their decision to do those exercises decreased dramatically. So the conclusion of that scientific study is that adolescent dogs are quote unquote less obedient than when the same dogs were puppies. I actually did an entire podcast episode on my own podcast about this study.

Because had they used exercises driven in CBT... and applied CBT, the results would be dramatically different. The dogs would not be deemed disobedient and not be deemed challenging. So her goal was good. Her goal was to say, Hey, this stage is difficult. The problem is, if you continue to use a method that is not effective, it leads to dogs being surrendered, which I don't even have to talk to you about, but...

They get surrendered, euthanized, or people resort to unethical methods because they're just not sure what to do. We see everywhere on social media, these people weren't patient, they didn't do, I would never give up my dog, that person's horrible, horrible, but we really don't know what they've tried. Right.

Now, you're an independent rescue, so you're much more in tune, I think, with The people that may be called to surrender now shelters don't shelters might get some information It might be well doesn't fit in with my lifestyle. Well, it doesn't fit in with lifestyle is behavior Commonly that's behavior, you know, if you actually dove deep into that.

Well, we just had a baby we can't walk the baby in the stroller with the dog because the dogs reactive to dogs or We can't take the dog camping, or every time we have people over, we have to take the dog over to my parents house, and my parents just went into, you know, a senior home, so they can't take the dog, you know, but it's behavior.

It's essentially behavior. So we don't know really what those people have tried, whereas, there's a good chance they've hired respectable, certified trainers, but their method is, It's conditioning only, whether that's operant, counter, or classical, or both, or a combination. That's where we kind of get stuck, because one of the reasons we're doing this podcast is one of our missions at Starlight Outreach and Rescue is education, so, you know, when I get a phone call, I need to surrender my cat, I want to surrender my dog, it would be real easy to say, Well, I'm sorry, we're full.

I'll send you a link to a bunch of other rescues, but I always want to know why, why, what's going on? What have you tried? You know, I try to ask a lot of questions, but in the end, when it comes to dog behavior, you hit that point. Like I know a certain amount, I don't know anything about cognitive behavior.

I know about the conditioning type behavior, so I can lay out, well, have you tried this, this, this, none of that works and it's like, okay, well. You know, your best bet would be to consult, you know, a professional trainer, but you're just kind of sending them to the same. Even behavioral veterinarians, they only use conditioning methods.

I am a member of the animal behavior society, which is affiliated with the organization that provides the highest certification to behavioral veterinarians and they only recognize conditioning. Yeah. So, I would love to tell you about my Golden Retriever, Chester, and see if you could tell me where I went wrong on this.

So, I had this Golden Retriever. He was very well trained, right? I mean, he would come from hand signals, he'd be very good indoors or whatever, very good on the leash, healing, all of that stuff. When it came to trying to train him to go off leash, I used the traditional methods, because we did not have a fenced yard, of, you know, a long lead.

You know, recall, it worked, it worked, and what would happen would be, and almost to a time, I would do the recall on the long lead, I would take him off the lead, I would do the recall, he would come once, he would come twice, and either in that second time or the third time, he'd come halfway, and then all of a sudden, like, you'd just see something switch in his head, and he'd take off.

So, I'm not saying that I would want you to share how to fix that. But just from the standpoint of, how would you look at that? Cause I thought it was interesting when you said, it goes back to before that challenging behavior and exercises that we do. And it's like, okay, so obviously there was something missing, even though I thought this dog was so well trained.

There's something, some connection that's missing that is allowing him to make that decision. Like, I'm halfway there, but now I'm just going to take off and run down the street. Right. That's exactly, that's exactly. So the problem that happens is then people go and apply it and it doesn't work because they haven't done their platform skills.

And it might not be what I would suggest to everyone, but this isn't really CBT as an entire program. This is just only addressing come when called. Commonly with what I'm working with, people hire me for a specific reason. But once we just flip over the mindset on how they're working with their dog at home and how they're communicating and what they're doing outside of these challenging situations, that's what's most important.

So I would start out, first of all, by asking you. What your dog knows and feed off of that, get them level, get that level higher, get the cognitive skills higher at other areas. However, I will jump forward. In a situation like that, what's interesting is the method that initially taught the recall is teaching the dog that come means I go from, or some people use here, but your recall you're using come.

So your come means I go from where I am to where my mom is. That's your physical action that we were talking about earlier. So, like you said, you taught that well, sometime during your puppyhood, under six months. You taught that using a reinforcement. So, you taught, come using your long lead, I think you said.

Yeah. They come, they get rewarded at you. So, I'm assuming that you either patted or gave a treat or some type of reward at you. Right. And that teaches, come when called. What your dog is doing, initially, is... Saying, okay, I know what common cold is, so I'm starting to come. My brain is like, right, I know that.

And then it's like, wait, she's right there. She's 20 feet away. That's more interesting. I'm gonna go do that because I don't really see the reason to come un cold. And this is actually studies that have been done back to Naomi Harvey. Dogs were less likely to come and call. But you're 20 feet, you're 10 feet from me.

I get it. You're right there. Why do I need to be all the way over there? Yeah. It's, it's like, it kind of makes no sense and it's sort of stupid. So then they don't do it. So then you get some trainers that say, well, I actually saw a video of one. She's in Canada actually. And she does a lot of agility and this type of stuff.

And she said, well, you know, the dog is fine not coming when called because they're looking at me and using cognitive skills and knowing that I'm so they don't have to come and call. That is not necessarily what I'm saying that the dog doesn't have to come when called. But we do have to advance with the dog and same with people if, if they look and think really, or even in work environments, if you think about your own environment, if something that your boss is asking you to do is just way beneath you and sort of stupid, you may or may not do it, but you don't want to get fired.

But on the same note, you're going, what is going to happen if I don't do it? And that's just such a silly exercise or really do we have to do that? You know, I can see in my first week or my first year, but I've been here five years at this. Do I really need to do that? It's sort of like that. So that's kind of what your dog's doing halfway, halfway back to you.

Yes, so I'm not saying that they can't come uncalled, but if you want them to respect what you're asking them to do, it has to be the level that they're at. So for example, When they do come or they check in, or you can even do it while they are at that halfway point, give your reset. Again, it depends on the client, depends on the dog, how strong the commands are, when they're taught, how they're taught.

And this isn't a whole CBT program, this is just a one small example of the difference. So say your doggy comes back and sort of checks in. Most people would, good stuff, good boy or whatever, and reward for checking in. We would actually give a reset, stay or wait, whatever they've taught, and then release.

Go. I get it. You want to go. But that should be not just the dog kind of checks in, circles around, deeks and darts and goes off. That's not calm manageability. But if you can get a reset and then a release, you're not rewarding at you because you want the reward to correlate with what's important to that dog, which is running across the field to go play with his friend.

Can you get that when your dog's halfway back? Can you get that when your dog's across the field? You're changing the dog's perception of you understanding what's important to them. When they're a puppy, what was important to them was you praising them, rewarding them, getting that treat, or even just pats and praises.

Loving on them, yeah. Yeah, but now what's important to them is going and playing with their doggy friend over there. So let them know you recognize that. Do your reset. Give your release. You're not rewarding at you because if, let's say the dog did come back, you gave a reset and then you gave a release command and they decided to stay there, well, then pat them because they're letting you know that they do want that.

They wanted to be there. Yeah. So the behavior isn't changing based on a reward. And that's a big difference. So it's not just a matter of using conditioning methods and weaning off the reward. And you can do that. You can use conditioning methods and wean off rewards once dogs get trained. Of course you can.

But that's not going over to CBT. CBT isn't grounded in we don't use rewards. It's grounded in that the dog isn't doing the behavior because of the reinforcement. So, the dog isn't decreasing anxiety or changing because of a reinforcement. That's not why. They're doing it because their brain is allowed to reset, process, and release.

The ability for that brain to reset, process, and release, the example you just asked me to talk about would be one way that we would practice that. So, in your mind, we're fixing come when called. In my mind, we're strengthening an exercise. That teaches the dog, we know what they want, we can reset their brain, they can process and think, okay, I'm going to be given a release command.

Do I want to come to my mom or do I want to go to that dog or do I want to stay exactly where I am? Now we're giving the option for decision making. We're giving the ability for decision making because that release command wasn't come. Maybe it would be the second time. Maybe you would give a reset and then give it a recall.

But the idea is that it's not based on the reinforcement. It's based on the dog being able to process and think and make these decisions and higher level and using those cognitive. And when I say cognitive skills, again, a decision making is, is a big one, problem solving. So dogs are doing this all the time, all the time.

Even, especially ones that come from the street. That's why they're still alive. So we need to harness the ability to do that if we want to communicate and connect and be able to, to work with them going all the way back to your house training example, right? We need to be working with them and, and harnessing those skills.

Another one that people see all the time is as a puppy, let's just say we're playing in the home throw ball, right? And then we decide that we need to stop because we actually have to go do things that aren't as fun, but we have to stop playing. And so as a puppy, we might. Give a treat or throw a treat down the hallway and then put a toy in the cupboard, put it away.

Or maybe replacement, so we'll take away the throw ball and give a chew stick instead. Those methods work during puppyhood. When the dog gets a little bit older, Eh? I'm not done playing. I know if when, yeah, I'm not done. I know, I'm not going to go get that treat down the hall because I know you're going to put that ball away.

They may go get the treat, but when they come back, they realize where the ball is. That's because they have the ability for what's called object permanence, which is a cognitive skill. They realize an object is somewhere, or they have the ability to process. So they realize that when you're throwing that treat down the hall, it's because your goal is to put the ball away.

They can actually process that, whereas a puppy, They can't. So again, it's not that their behavior is bad or they're less obedient. It's that they're harnessing these cognitive skills that allow them to figure this out. So what we would actually do is slow this process down, use our skills, use our exercises creatively to allow them to see that we have the ability to manage situations.

We're going to practice skills in other situations that are not challenging. Where we're managing them using exercises that we're then going to bring over to the ball situation. And we're going to actually incorporate them in, so the dog sees us put the ball away. But the dog's brain is calm, focusing, recognizing what we're doing.

We're not just using commands in the sense of stay, so that the dog stays and doesn't move so we can put the ball away. I mean, stay isn't going to fix all your problems. Right. Right. It's not a matter of stay fixes a problem or come fixes a problem. It's the dog's perception of your ability to allow them to be incorporated into a situation.

See what's going on. So we have to practice that brain space at other times. Yeah, that makes sense. I appreciate you sharing those examples. I was thinking about the putting the toys away and how we work with kids, you know, rather than removing them from a situation and putting all the toys away to try to get them to understand why the toys need to be put away and, and having them involved in that process.

Yes. And because. The dog doesn't speak English, per se, I mean, I know they understand words, but you can't have a conversation with them about why we need to put the toys away because grandma's coming over and they don't have opposable thumbs to pick up the toys and then open the cabinet and put the toys away.

That it's about understanding how their brain works and using it to create the training situation. Right, instead of just distracting or putting them away or something like that. And discounting their whole thinking process. Right. Exactly. Bang on. Thank you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I, I took me so long to catch on, but it's just, I wanted to just make sure I'm understanding it so that people who are dumb like me can understand it.

No, you're not at all. It's just such a totally different method and a totally different way of thinking because mainstream dog education is focused on, but when do I reward? You can, but the reward is inherent. It's what the dog values as the reward. Yeah, or it's just the dog is comfortable and and decided oh, you know what?

Okay, you can put that toy away I'm gonna go lay down or I'm gonna go get my other toy or I'm gonna go do something different Because they're allowed to process that whole thing happening and it's not done behind their back they're back, but you need the skills to be able to do that without them jumping up the cupboard.

So that's why it's 90 percent done at other times where we're practicing them being okay with things going not exactly the way that they expect. An example of that might be just the process for getting your walking apparatus on to go for a walk. A lot of times. Dogs will, ah, we're going for a walk, now that might be based on time of day.

It might be based on the shoes you put on. Oh yeah, the shoes are a big one. Yeah, or opening the cupboard that they know is where you keep the walking apparatus. Right. And then you go ahead and you move forward in this process by putting those shoes on, walking to the cupboard, opening the cupboard.

They're doing the right thing, you're doing the right thing, everything is good. You're happy with what your dog does, maybe sits to get on that walking apparatus and to get out the door. Everything's good. Well, now we're going to create some skills that changes that and not just changes it for the sake of changing it.

We actually have to click the brain over, allow the dog to process these changes when it's not a stressful situation or you're not trying to do something that is challenging like put a ball away. But, we're not fixing any problems with this walking, pre walking routine. What we're doing is using it as an opportunity to practice skills that have things not go exactly as planned.

Does the dog get on the walk? Absolutely. But we practice exercises that change that up. Now, that's not going to be for every single dog with every single problem because not all dogs need that. But that's just one example. Where if we go back to putting the ball in the cupboard, that doesn't go exactly that way that that dog wants that to happen.

So, that would be... where we would transfer some skills over. The skills we use during the pre walking routine, how we implement them varies, and a lot of that just happens to do with the people's own routine, what they do in their life, and what the dog expects. One way to think of it is a lot like a nutritionist.

So yes, they are following a platform. That reaches the goal of their client, but they are going to give different advice based on that person's lifestyle, obviously the person's goal, what they've tried, what they're comfortable with, what foods they like, what foods they can get, their exercise regime.

You're also going to start somewhere. Let's start somewhere and see what happens. The person's goal might be to lose 50 pounds, but they get back. Well, I haven't lost any weight, but my. Hair is healthier and I'm sleeping better. Huh. Okay. Good. Great. That's in the plus column. Right. So we know that we're doing some things correctly.

Your body's responding. It also provides motivation, right? So if they can see some progress and see in the case of a dog, the dog clicking over, making different decisions, making better decisions, processing, and they can see their dog doing that. It's really cool. It's super fun. It's super cool. I'm not saying that instantly all their problems are fixed, but when we talk about.

People saying, Oh, you should have patience. You should have patience. That's easy for people to say, but if their dog is Continuously getting worse during the adolescent stage and nothing's working and they're trying things and they're dedicated But their dog is actually rooking them more and more. It's challenging to be patient You need to see progress in some way or another CBT has progress very quickly usually within two to four days I have clients going from, I am going to surrender or euthanize my dog, or I was told by my behavioral veterinarian, or I was told by my previous trainers to euthanize or surrender.

Literally within two to four days, they've completely changed that to, okay, I'm going to continue working. That is what rescue organizations need. Rescue organizations need people to feel like, Okay, I can do this. I'm going to no longer surrender or return the dog. And then that is what inherently instills patience.

And then we keep going. So, you know, I would like to have the opportunity to either direct people to your website, or are you taking clients? Do you work with clients in person or do you work virtually? Can you, can that even be done with what you're doing? This is a good, that's a very good question. I should have said that.

Yes, I work virtually with clients all over the world. Absolutely. We use, uh, it's one on one. So we, sometimes people will just take me. With their iPad or whatever their phone on a dog walk with them or to where they're going. We do a lot of exchange of videos and these aren't generic videos. I don't have them preset and just send them out or paperwork sent out.

It is one on one. Specific to that. So you're basically analyze a video, maybe that they sent you or something and then you send them back to the feedback video. Yeah, yeah, it works super well. And as they're going through the program, they get it. Like I see their light bulb go on, you know, I got it. I know what I'm going to do.

And I'm going to send this to her. And yeah, it's it's amazing. It's such a phenomenal program. And I've been doing it this way for over three decades. And it's just a such a great program. But I also do live for local clients. We'll put the link to the website up in the show notes, but go ahead and say it so that it's in the video and the audio.

Great. So it's www. upward, which is U P W A R D, dogology, D O G O L O G Y. com. And the podcast is Dog Training Disrupted by Upward Dogology. I also have a book out. That's on the, that's on the website. Yeah, we'll definitely have people check that out because I think it was just, obviously there's only so much we can cover in one podcast episode and it just gives people the opportunity to, because I feel like the more that you, the more that you dig into it, the more that you'll comprehend how that, you know, number one, how important it is.

And you know, I really highly. If anybody out there listening, especially with our teenage dogs, or has adopted a, you know, not quite tiny puppy or anything like that to definitely listen to this episode, because it's not going to give you your answers. That's not the point, but it's understanding why, why the answers that you're trying don't work.

And that you need to try something different. And I think that just knowing that is such a huge thing. It's just, uh, kind of changed my mindset about the, why's my dog so dumb that he doesn't remember how to sit or doesn't remember how to come back. And it's like, no, my dog is smarter now and he doesn't want to kind of thing.

And he's got better things to do. And it's. It's like if we thought about it that way a little bit, I think it would be a little easier to understand. So thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time and I appreciate the platform to spread awareness to help people, pet parents, fosters, and of course, dogs.

Thank you so much, Amy. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Starlight Pet Talk. If you don't do anything else this week, make sure you give your pets a hug from us. You've been listening to the Starlight Pet Talk podcast. We're glad you joined us to gain new insight on the many loving ways to adopt and care for your pets.

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