Is Your Pet's Diet Dangerous? Insights From Dr. Jeff Grognet

Are you feeding your pet the RIGHT food?

Announcer: Welcome to the Starlight Pet Talk Podcast, where we'll talk about and explore ways to help pet parents and future pet parents learn everything they need to know to have a happy and healthy relationship with their pet. So sit up and stay for Starlight Pet Talk, rescue adoption and pet parenting done right.

Amy Castro: Welcome to Starlight Pet Talk. I'm Amy Castro, and this week's topic is one that all pet parents need to hear. We're going to talk about nutrition. There's been a lot of information and misinformation in the news and on social media about various types of pet foods, pet food ingredients that might be dangerous or damaging to your pets.

 Amy Castro: And I think it's become really challenging for pet parents to make good decisions about what they should feed their pets on a daily basis. To help us navigate this issue, I have a very special guest here today, Dr. Jeff Grognet is a veterinarian based in British Columbia, Canada, and he focuses specifically on helping animals live better lives using holistic methods.

 Amy Castro: His focus is on nutrition and avoiding chemicals of all types. He has several courses available and holds conferences such as his Holistic Cat Conference at the end of May, and he can be found at www.newearthvet.com. So welcome Dr. Jeff Grognet.

Dr. Jeff Grognet:  Okay, thanks Amy.

Amy Castro: So why are so many animals obese these days? 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Well, the biggest reason, of course, is because of what they've been fed. And the problem that we have is that, and this, and I'm going to hone in on cats for a moment, especially cats, the diets that they're being fed are quite inappropriate. And the way to think about it is this. If you take your average outside cat that is surviving on its own, what does that cat eat? This is going to be little mice, rabbits, birds. In other words, this cat is a predator. And cats are, well, as we term it, obligate carnivores. They have to eat meat to get the nutrients they require, but when you think of your average cat that's going out and surviving on its own, generally eating three to four mice a day, that's what a cat would need.  Then when you look at that diet and you sort of break it down as to what is it, you're going to find this a fairly high protein diet. It is a fairly high fat diet because it's meat and all the organs and things inside. More importantly, it's very low carb. The only carbs a cat is going to get while hunting is going to be the intestinal contents, which are made of vegetation, obviously.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: And so that's really the only carb component in a natural cat diet. And when you think of what we're feeding and I'm going to point directly at a cheap dry food that the preponderance of the food in that diet is going to be grains and specifically corn.  And what you find is that they're high in grains, low in meat, because obviously meat is more expensive to put into foods and also fat is more expensive still to put into foods. So what you end up with is a diet that is totally contrary to what a natural cat should eat. The one you're feeding in the bowl is low protein, low fat, and very high carbs. And any diet that is dry and extruded, and that is, it's the puffy brown things that you see sometimes with color on them, but that has to have a high carb content to be able to make it. And for people that, like me, I do like something called popcorn twists. And those are exactly the same ideas as cat food and dry dog. And that is, it's corn that's put through the extruder and it puffs up. And of course for us it's covered in oil, it's covered in salt and all that. It's totally bad for our health, but obviously some people still eat it.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: It's still sold. But that is a totally inappropriate way to feed a cat. And with looking at dogs for a moment, dog food is plagued with the same problem, and that dry dog food is high in carbs, it's high in the cereals and I'm, I'm going to put cereals as grains, but also rice and, and then nowadays it's filled with the, what we call the pulses. The legumes. So it's got the peas and potatoes and things like that, but those are all high carbs as well. And so when you think of a dog out in the wild, what are they eating? Well, if we think of them totally as a wolf, then they're eating prey, and certainly some people think that dogs also eat root things and vegetation and stuff like that, but it's not the degree of percentage that a dry diet would have in terms of grains.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: So we're starting off with the diets that are really high in carbs. And then our problem is how does the cat react to it? And in the case of cats, their metabolism is not set up for high carb diets, and the best analogy is thinking about a person who is prone to diabetes. And that is, if, if you're, I call it mature, you're heavy, you're sedentary, if you're in that category and your diet isn’t green vegetables and meat and things like that instead, and think of the horrible diets, and that is you're getting food and McDonald's, you're eating potato chips, you're eating nacho chips, you're eating all things like that. That is the inappropriate diet for us. If you're prone to diabetes, and that's because your blood sugar goes too high and then your pancreas gets burnt out, and then you become diabetic.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: That is the problem that we have with cats, and that is if we're feeding them a high grain diet all the time, what's happening is that they're pancreas, pancreati whatever plural of pancreas, are burning out. And so they just can't keep up to that. And so what happens is that their blood sugar starts to rise. And then the next thing is you've got a cat that's turning diabetic on you. And in the ultimate case, yes, they need insulin. So this is the best way I think about it. When I have diagnosed a cat with diabetes, and the majority of these come in fat over like overweight, very grossly overweight, they're being fed at usually a dry diet with the carbs. And they're not getting any exercise, as an exercise for them is going to the food bowl and coming back to bed. Uh, what the first thing I do with those guys is get them on an appropriate diet. And the appropriate diet for a cat is, and you know, now high protein, high fat, low carb. And by doing that, there's an awful lot of diabetic cats who do not need insulin. That's the whole key. And think of people land. If you were diagnosed with, hey, you're starting to be a diabetic, your blood sugar's starting to rise, what's the doctor going to tell you? Get away from the bread. Eat more veggies, get some exercise, that type of thing in the hope that you're not going to turn into a full-blown diabetic later.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And that is what we want to do with cats. And so that's the treatment for a diabetic cat. But think of it this way. Why do we want to even put them in that risk of becoming diabetic? Why don't we get the diet sorted out beforehand? 

Amy Castro: Right. 

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And that is the solution for cats very easily, and that is to prevent them from becoming the obese slugs that are prone to diabetes and then being overweight and having sore joints because of arthritis. And then I call the kitty peril not being able to lick their own butt and keep clean.  

Amy Castro: Yeah.  Can't quite reach it anymore.  

Dr.  Jeff Grognet:  That’s right. Some of them really struggle with that one. And so what we want to do with them is start early, get them on the appropriate diet and prevent them from getting fat.

Amy Castro: Right.  

 Dr. Jeff Grognet:  And so if you’ve got a cat that has been a dry food junkie because you'll be supplying it and you want to get them healthier, then we want to go with an appropriate diet. 

Amy Castro: Okay, before we talk, before we talk about the appropriate diet, I do want to ask a question. So, I feel like I'm a pretty decent pet parent and for years, up until very recently when I've done more education, the, they said, and I don't want to necessarily point the finger at, veterinarians or, but the common wisdom was, you feed your pets dry food because it's good for their teeth. And then obviously as pet parents, the convenience of being able to put some dry food in a bowl, and especially when you've got free feeders like I've got, and they eat it when they feel like it. And when the bowl's empty, you clean it and you put more food in it.

Amy Castro: Why was that philosophy so ingrained in us that that's all we fed our pets until the last couple of years? 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Yeah, that, those are great questions. And the, okay, first off, when you think of dry food, cleaning teeth, and this, is my answer to this one. Have any of your cats ever thrown up their dry food?

Amy Castro: Oh yeah. All the time. Some of them all the time. Yeah. 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: So, when you see that dry food on the carpet, the nice clean carpet that stains badly, what do the dry food pieces look like?  Do they look like the same as when you put them in the bowl? 

Amy Castro: It depends on how quickly they throw up. Sometimes it looks like a big fat puffed up version of what was in the bowl, and other times it looks like mush. It depends. 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Yeah. Yeah. If it's in the stomach long enough, it'll turn to mush. But if they vomit soon enough after, you'll see that the shape of the pieces is the same as what's in the bowl. 

Amy Castro: Yes.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: They're not chewing it. And when cat cats are inhalers of food, they have tongues with little barbs that go backwards. And so because of that, they're able to get their tongue working, which just flips it into the back of their mouth and they swallow it down. And so depending on food for cleaning teeth is totally ludicrous. It just does not work in cats. And just, and just to go into the dog version of this, this is how it all got started and I'm, I'm going to start saying this is depends on when you were born as to what you believe. When I was growing up, there was a commercial on TV for Milk Bone and what it showed was a was a cup and it showed a milk bone and a toothbrush. We had a whole generation of people grow up thinking that Milk Bone cleans teeth. 

 Amy Castro: Oh, and they still, they're still here and I still run in to them.

Dr. Jeff Grognet:  Yeah. And so the, the point is that, yeah, when, when dogs get dry food, you know, they go chump, chomp, gulp.  They're not using it to clean teeth. When we compare that to chewing on a bone, night and day.  And so dogs that are fed dry food do not get clean teeth from the dried. The prescription diets that are made for cleaning teeth, which are made with extra large kibbles that supposedly when the dog chews it, they will actually braid the tooth surface to remove the plaque. I mean, yeah, it's a neat idea. But the original studies on those, which were done by Hills, showed that there was a 15% reduction in the amount of plaque, or sorry, tartar that built up. That's all. So rather than having a millimeter of tartar, you only had 0.85 millimeters of tartar.

Amy Castro: Well, when you put it that way.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: So that was the original research on those diets and then they were marketed as God's gift to dental disease. But I see lots of dogs that are fed prescription diets for dental problems and we still have to clean their teeth. Lots and lots of times. So they're not the end all for, dental issues by any means. 

Amy Castro:  Got it. Got it. 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: So, so anyway, the other side is you ask why do we, why do people still feed all that dry food? Because, well, the answer to it is simple. And it's under the same category that, gee, I'm on my way home. I don't feel like getting there to make spend an hour making dinner. I'm going to stop at McDonald's. Is it the healthiest approach? No, but it's convenient. And it's easy to do. And that's the problem that we have with dry food. It be both dogs and cats. And that is, it's so easy to just, to get the bag, put it into the bowl, and as you mentioned, you just keep filling up the dish room and that way, hey, we're doing great. It's easy to feed my animals. And people are stressed they're pushed. 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: I mean, feeding their kids is hard. Feeding the dog or the cat is just an added burden. But, the problem that we have is the food is inappropriate, as we've talked about. But the other side is that in that situation, a lot of times you're not controlling the quantity. And so the problem with cats, again, is that when they go and have that type of food, and this is the same thing happens to people, that are on, they're eating, I call the higher carb things  in their diet. And that is the cat goes along with the bowl, has a meal and gets full. And what happens then, of course, is if it's a high grain diet in a cat, the blood sugar goes up sometimes fairly high. The next thing is it crashes so the blood sugar drops down. And so usually about three to four hours after they've had a big breakfast, oh, I feel hungry again. They're eating once more. And so what you, what you see then is that cats that are on dry food don't have set meal times. Generally what's happens with them is that they're snacking all day long.

Amy Castro: Right. 

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And so, you end up with cats that are just prone to becoming obese because they're just getting so much of that in there. And that's what leads to the whole problem of diabetes and such. And then the same thing with dogs. If you're putting in a set amount, then that's a little bit better if you're measuring how many cups go in the bowl. But a lot of people don't do that. And a lot of people will feed that and they just keep the dish full. And I've got, I've got people that come in with these great big fat dogs and you say, hello, how much do you feed? Well, A handful. 

Amy Castro: And that's super scientific. 

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And I did, I did this with one guy because he was being, he was being a bit of a pain and I was trying to get, prove the point to him. And I, and I actually got some dry food and I said okay, get me a handful so I can measure it. So he did. He got a handful, put it in the bowl. Great. I says, I want you to do it again. I got him to do it three times and there was three different quantities. Okay?

 Amy Castro: Yeah, no surprise there. 

Dr. Jeff Grognet:  So that’s the problem. Okay. So it is, it is more convenient to feed that type of food. Okay. The next thing that'd be more, that'd be just as convenient is feeding canned food. And that's something we're going to get into, but, and then you can go full lore and you're making a homemade food, you're making a raw food or something like that. But as you go along that scale, you're going to get healthier and healthier for them. That's the key. 

Amy Castro: And so I, for us as pet parents, I guess what we have to figure out is it's that balance of doing the best we possibly can with, because I, I will admit, I tried when I had my doberman pincher and I had invested a lot into getting this fabulous dog and wanted to make sure I did everything right.

Amy Castro: And I had, it was kind of like when I had my daughter, I thought, oh, we're going to cloth diapers. I'm not putting no plastic diapers on. And that lasted about a day. And then I realized that cloth diapers were not fun. They were not fun at all. And so it was kind of the same thing with the cooking for the dog and prepping the raw diet. It's like, I could probably do that, but I've got three dogs. I'm running an animal rescue. I can't, like, I can't, or I just, I guess I'm not prioritizing it. And maybe that's bad on me, but. How can, how can we try to do the right thing and, and let's talk about that progression of this would be better and this would be better and see where we land.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Yeah. That's the point. There's, is any diet totally wrong? No, but this, there's a whole degree of which is better than the other, and it's the same in, I always think of it in terms of people equivalence, and that is, yes, I can go and have bacon, eggs, toast, and hash browns for breakfast. I can then go and have a burger and fries for lunch and then supper, throw in chicken cordon blue with a small salad to be healthy.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Versus I could be in a full scale, on the other end of the scale is I can be vegetarian and it and, and it get rid of all that. Which one is going to take more prep? Right. And that's where you run into the problems. Okay?

Amy Castro: Right.  

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And so we innately know what diet is good for us, but do we follow that? Do we follow the, I call it the food guide all the time? No, we don't. Okay.  So, the key is to try and figure out what's the best and how close can we get to doing. So, so let's look at cats, because that's the one that shows the most improvement with diet for sure. So with cats, I mentioned the best diet for them is high protein, high fat, low carb.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: That's, that's where we want to go here. And so when you compare that to the dry food, the dry food has a failing grade. The next thing you're going to look at is in terms of buying something commercial is canned food. Well, canned food comes in different varieties, of course, and you're going to find canned food, and I'm going to break it down into two. One is a really high meat canned food. The other one is meat with other stuff, and I'm going to say carbs. Okay? You'll find some canned foods out there that are, have chicken, and then the next thing is they have rice or they have peas or something like. Okay, so, that's, that's get getting partway down to the high meat product.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And then, then you've got the diets that are, and you'll see that on the label quite often. They'll advertise it 96% beef, 96% venison or something like that. And that gets, that is a diet that doesn't have the carbs in it. You're go, the argument you're going to have is that well, cats need carbs. They need it because of the fiber. They need it for their poops. Well, your average cat out in the wild eats very little fiber, as I mentioned. It's only the intestinal contents of the mouse. That's it. That's all. That's the, the only fiber they're going to get. Okay. What it's going to result in is their poops, their fecal material is going to be very small, and it's going to be usually firm. 

 Amy Castro:  Yeah. No cat parent wants that, right?

Dr. Jeff Grognet: Well, we, we shouldn't want that. 

Amy Castro: It's like we would love to have it smaller and firmer. Yeah. 

Dr. Jeff Grognet: Well that becomes very apparent in dog land for sure. But anyway, the point is that when you've got, them eating the appropriate diet, their bowels are happier. And this relates a little bit back to also we're going to, I'm going to pull this in right now. We have a lot of cats that periodically vomit and for some reason, a lot of cat owners and their veterinarians think, well, it's normal for cats to vomit once a week or every couple of weeks, or something like that.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And think about it logically, no it's not. Why would they do that? This isn't a bird that's bringing up the stuff from in their crop that doesn't digest. This is a cat. And so the reason they're doing this is because they have inflammation down in their stomach. Or maybe intestine as well. Why is that? It's usually, it's because of what we call inflammatory bowel disease and the majority of inflammatory bowel is triggered by the carbs.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And I've managed to get a lot of cats to stop vomiting by converting them to a grain fill from a grain filled diet to a grain-free diet. So, so that's one, that's one thing that people can look at.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: If you've got a cat who's vomiting periodically, making a mess of your champagne colored carpet, then what you should be looking at is changing the ingredients that are going in the cat's mouth. And the best way would be moving to a, you can go with a canned food and that way, you can select a protein that they haven't had before. So if they're on a dry food, chances are it's going to be chicken that's in there maybe with some other things. But chicken is always in there because it's the cheaper one to add. And so go and look for a canned food that does not have chicken. And it is another protein. So in other words, you're going to get one that's rabbit or pork or something that that cat hasn't had before, and then keep them on that food and stop all treats.

Amy Castro: Yeah. I'm not a treat person, but there's my volunteers, God love them,  it seems like those little treat bags sneak their way onto the cat cart at the, at the pet shop where we have our cats being shown and it's like, stop giving them treats. But you know, it's like they feel like they have to, it's the way I show love.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: Yeah, but if you’ve got a cat with intestinal issues and you're giving them, I'll call it Pounce treats, which are mainly corn, you're going to keep the problem going. So there's a thought for you. 

Dr. Jeff Grognet: So anyway, moving to canned food is the first step. But I will try and make sure it's not a high, it doesn't have grain in it or carbs in it in any way. So read, read the tiny print, get your glasses on and magnifiers so you can read that and see what's in there. And go for one that's all meat.And then the next thing, of course, is moving to a food that is more like their, I call it ancestral diet. And that is going to a raw type food. And with, with dogs, quite often I'll talk about raw and cooked with cats, raw is better. 

Dr. Jeff Grognet:  They, a lot of cats just do not like cooked meats. There's some that do for sure. But generally going with raw is the better way to go. And there's two ways you can get into raw. One is you can buy a prepared diet and it's usually frozen. And then the other side is you can, also make it yourself.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And that is you're buying the raw meat, sometimes with bones, sometimes without, you're grinding it up and then you're adding in, the vitamins, minerals, and such that you need to make it balance. And that's a, that's a complete thing you need to work on as well. If you're getting into that, then there's certainly some good, sites that have raw food diet recipes on them.  

 Amy Castro: Like recipes, that would be super helpful because I think that's what people, they struggle with like, okay, I could probably, I could probably do that. I could probably buy the raw meat. I could probably grind it up and prep it. But then the warning is always, but you know, if you do that, it's not going to be, it's not going to have everything they need. You need to put all this other stuff and then you start saying, ah, maybe not so much.  Is it that complicated or not really?

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Oh, it can be complicated, because there's two ways to add in the stuff. One is you can get a prepared mineral mixture, it's mineral and vitamin mixture that you put in, or you can start adding in all the components yourself.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: And the so one of two ways. One, is you can, if you want to get a recipe for anyone that wants one, there is a site that I refer people to, it's called cat info.org. That one has very good recipes in there. I'll be honest, they're complicated. It's not one that you would just say, yep, I can do that, and you're on your way.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: The other way you can do it is getting a feline supplement, which you add to the meat and that's another way to do it. And there's several companies that make those. 

Amy Castro: Well I was even thinking the other day, couldn't, it's the concept for me, as much as I think maybe some people might like the idea of making a meal every day for their pet, that's not going to work for my lifestyle, but I could make a certain volume,  correct, and then freeze it? 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Yep. Yeah. You make it up on a Sunday and then you freeze it. Yeah. You can do, you can do a couple of weeks quite easily with a cat as long as you only have one.  And so, yeah, that is a, is a great way to go about it.

Amy Castro: And do you find that cats just, and, and this is probably a dumb example, but I'm going to tell the story anyway, so I got, this property that we purchased has a fully stocked fish pond that was not managed.  And it was overrun with bluegill fish and I didn't want to eat them, but I thought, boy, I bet you my barn cats would love these fish. So I, you know, I cleaned the fish, I put the raw fish meat out and they wouldn't touch it. What did I do wrong? 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: No. First off, you believe the cartoons that you saw when you were growing up that cats like Fish. 

Amy Castro: Okay. Yeah. Oh, oh man. Yeah.  

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: There's, there's two issues there.  One is you were feeding them something foreign that they said, I don't know what this stuff is. So they said no. And so because of that, they said, no, I've never smelled this before and I think it's going to kill me. So that's why they didn't do it. But the other side is it's texture. And you'll see this if you're trying to convert a cat from dry food to raw. And we had, we had this issue with one of our cats, and Clinton was his name. He was a big black and white guy when we had him at first and where we got him from, he was a dry junkie, literally. And all he had to do was shake the dry food and he'd come running and he'd take your, take your feet off if he, if you wouldn't even give him fast enough, right?

Dr. Jeff Grognet: So, anyway, we wanted to convert him over. Always the first thing you do is use canned food before you use the raw, just so you can do it in a transition. And so we were trying to get him to eat canned food, and it was like, oh, you know, give him some. And he goes, I don't know what that. Give me my popcorn stuff, right? And, so what we ended up doing, and this is what you could have done with your fish, we got some of the dry food, put it in a baggie, got the rolling pin and mashed it to powder. And then we used that powder to, as I call it, shaken, baked the wet food. 

 Amy Castro: Ah, okay. Like I have a very good visual of that.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: Yeah, and that way they can, they can go along and smell it and they smell that dry food, which is how dry food has all kinds of flavor enhancers on it. So you're using that as, as the coating. And so they start going at that and then all of a sudden, oh, there's some weird stuff under here, but I still like the dry food, I'm going to keep going. And that's how you get things going on a different food. Okay. That's one way. 

 Amy Castro: Yeah. And, and it makes total sense because I know when we're weaning, I'm going through this right now. I've got a mama kitten, a mama cat living in my bathroom. Her litter of kittens are getting ready to wean.  And I just got in some bottle babies who are a little bit puny and it's like, I really want to switch everybody over. So the bottle babies had been on a bottle, they couldn't figure out. It took them a bit to figure out how to work a mom cat. And then, in weaning the kittens, that first introduction to the canned food or the gruel that we make, they don't want anything to do with it, you know?

Amy Castro: But it eventually, when they get the taste of it and you got a little bit of formula mixed in there and it's a process. So it duh me just, I thought the cats were dumb. I guess it was me. The fish. 

Dr. Jeff Grognet: Well, the, the biggest reason for failing in transitioning a cat because, I see, I saw this all the time and said, I said, we’ve really got to try getting the canned food going.  He says, oh, he doesn't like it. I said, so how do you do that?  And they say, well, I open the can, I put it in a bowl. And he, I leave it for him. I said, and then I always ask, so where's the dry food when you're doing this? And they say, well, it's right over there. Oh, so you didn't take the dry food away. You don't have a hungry cat. We’re dead.  So what I suggest is when you go to bed, you take the food, the dry food away, and in the morning you offer canned food. That's how you do it. 

Amy Castro: Okay? Okay. And, and I, I don't know if I want to put this in the, in the podcast, but I, I do want to see your thoughts on this. Will, we had a, a Boston terrier that we brought into the rescue, and, and it was an older gentleman that had him. The guy basically fed him fast food, hamburgers, and, and a lot of people food. And we don't play that game. I mean, I may be fat, but my pets are lean. I take really good, I kind of keep him lean. So, you know, this dog didn't eat for the first day, didn't really eat the second day, and everybody's like, well, she's going to starve to death.

 Amy Castro: She's going to starve to death. And it's like, I'm sorry, I've never seen a dog starved to death when there's food right there. But I didn't, I know that there's always issues surrounding cats and them losing weight too fast. And how far do you play hardball before you realize my cat's going to starve to death? Or is that just not going to happen?

Dr. Jeff Grognet: With the dog, you can get away with it, you know? And my, my question always is how is your dog really skinny? As in, is it a hazard to not eat and most of the time? No. It's got lots of, lots of flesh. So in that case, keep going with the dog.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: With cats, after two, three days, and not eating, the liver starts to change. And that is a problem because when that happens, their appetite really does drop and it's really hard to get them back on. And so I don't like missing more than one day with a cat. 

Amy Castro: Okay, I’m glad I asked. 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: So I’d be offering them some food, maybe half rations to keep them hungry, to get them going onto the new food. That's, that's the way I would do it. 

 Amy Castro: Okay. Great, great. Yeah. All right, so we talked about transitioning to canned and the options for doing raw. And I love the fact that there are recipes that you can get. Plus the concept of the prebalanced supplements. Are those available just like are they general cat stuff? Because I, I know I had mentioned to you, and I know we're going to get to this in just a second about my, my cat that has the, has already had bladder stone surgery at nine months old.

 Amy Castro: Are there supplements specific to certain issues that cats have that you could put in a raw food?

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: In terms of supplementing a raw food diet, you can go on to Amazon and look up feline supplements. One that I've used a lot is RX vitamins.  They have one and it's specifically for cats, for felines. They have one for dogs similarly. Those are quite useful just to add into the diet and then you're on your way. So the other question I get with supplements is that when we have a cat that has certain disease, should we be changing the supplements? Should we be adding other things?  Well, obviously if we've got a liver problem or something like that, there's certain herbs and supplements that can be used to help assist the liver. The more common problem we get with cats is bladder issues, and that is they will form bladder crystals, which can then plug the urethra in male cats.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Female cats can get the crystals too, but they just don't get blocked like a male does. And so the, the question is, how, how did that come about and what can we do to remedy that? And what you're going to find is that if you have a cat that is truly blocked, and this is, this is called cat first aid. If your cat goes to litter box, tries to pee and is crying, there's blood in the urine or there's just no urine coming out, that's called emergency.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: You've got to get to the hospital now, as in, put the cat in the carrier and get on the phone as you're going to the hospital to make sure they'll receive you. Because if he's blocked you have 48 hours and he could, you could lose him. Okay? So we need to make sure we can get that thing treated. The next question is what do we do afterwards?

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And from the conventional perspective, what you're going to find is that veterinarians are going to suggest certain diets. And they're going to be what called prescription diets that are made for bladder ailments. The thing about these diets is that they both come in canned and dry, and because of people wanting convenience, quite often they go with the dry food.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And this is the problem with cats. Cats that are fed dry diets only drink when they become dehydrated. And what I mean by that is that cats that are fed mice, a mouse is 80% water. So if they're eating four mice a day, they're getting that amount of water in their body. When they're eating dry food, which is only 10% moisture, they're getting very, very little water in their body.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And cats can survive on very little water. But the problem is, they don't drink until they say, gee, my mouth is a little bit dry. I think I'm going to go to the dish room and drink some water. So the problem with it is cat urine quite often is fairly concentrated, even normally. And then if you add dry food to the equation, it's more concentrated. 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: And I always think of my situation. I've had something called kidney stones, a few times. And guess what the solution is for kidney stones in people. It isn't a dietary change. It's a thing that says you must drink eight glasses of water every day, buddy. Or else you're going to be coming back and you're going to be in pain again. 
 
 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: So the point is, if we stay on the edge of dehydration, as if we're only drinking, when we're starting to get thirsty versus drinking voluntarily, that's when we're going to be prone to kidney issues. And so the solution in people is drink more water, dilute your urine, and lessen the chance of forming, in this case, kidney stones, which can block your, I call it tiny ureters. In the case of cats, what's the best way to prevent bladder crystals?  Dilute the urine. It's simple. And so if we get back to the, I call it the ancestral diet and that is a wet food, you're going to be providing more moisture and that's going to help to dilute the urine some degree. If that's not enough, then we can actually add water to that diet. And certainly I've done that with lots and lots of clients and that is, gee, your cat is cat's urine, even on the can food is still fairly concentrated. And I'd be more comfortable if we can get the concentration down. And the way we measure that is called urine specific gravity. And some people have things to do that and, but the, your veterinarian has it for sure.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And we want a specific gravity less than 1.020, what we call 10 20. And what we do is we add water until we get below that level below 10 20. We are not going to get crystals forming. Period. That's how we're going to prevent the disease from here on out. And the way I quite often do it with people is, okay, you're on canned food. It's still a little bit high. Maybe it's 10 30. Okay. And we've got a cat that has a history of forming bladder crystals. So a, we've got a cat that's at risk. So what we end up doing then is adding water to the food. You start off by adding a quarter can to one can of food. And then you go to up, move up to half. Don't do it the don't go the whole route on the first day because 

Amy Castro: Yeah, don't make it soup on the first day. 

Dr. Jeff Grognet: Yeah. The cat's going to say, I don't know what this stuff is. And, and you're dead. Okay. So you add a little quarter, can then, Hey, it's going good. Half a can. And eventually I get into doing one can in one can.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: So in other words, we're giving the same amount of water and that is going to get the specific gravity down, usually low. And, and we're there. And it's a very simple way to do it. 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: You can do the same thing with raw food, and that is a cup of raw food, a cup of water, same idea, okay? And that way you're going to be able to get the water in there and therefore dilute the urine and keep them safe from having a blockage again for the crystals. The diets and the other side is the diets that are provided for the cats that have had bladder problems. And I got an email and I did a blog post on this just two weeks ago, there was a gentleman who had a young five year old cat and it became blocked.  And so he was given this prescription bag of food, dry food. And he says, well, the things are okay with the bladder. Well, okay, that's fine. He says, but my cat's gaining weight and he's always hungry. Guess what the first ingredient in that food is? It’s corn.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: So because of that, yeah, now we are, now we're running the risk of turning that cat into a diabetic. So that's, that's called inappropriate feeding. That's not where we want to go. 

 Amy Castro:  Right. So, so I want to hit two issues related to the, prescription diet. And, but the first thing I wanted to hit on was this idea. So now, okay, we've decided we're going to go with the canned, we're going to try to stay away from the, stay away from the dry altogether.

Amy Castro: So now we've got the canned prescription diet that we can only get with a veterinarian prescription. And then we have, because I've investigated, I mean it, the prescription diet number one is very expensive. You have to go through the process of the prescription. And then you have also the same company that's making the prescription diet, also makes a canned, urinary care diet or whatever they call it. What do we need to know about those two options, I guess in comparison to either raw or just regular old canned food with additional water? Are those beneficial to feed our pets that are prone to stones? 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Okay. Yeah. There’s a lot of prescription diets that are available. They're because they're made by the competing companies. Okay, so you've got Hills, you've got Iams, you've got Purina. They've all got their own, brand of food. The, the commonality between all those is that those diets are based on what they call least cost formulation. And that is, they're kind of fixed formulas, but they're also, they're doing it to keep the costs down.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And what you find is that there's going to be very little meat, there's going to be a fair bit of carb, and fats are usually minimal. And so because of that, they're not good quality diets. And I'm just, I'm talking about the base here. I'm not talking about the things they add in for the urinary issues. The way that they prevent a urinary problem from coming back in some cases is that they add a fair amount of salt, which then triggers dehydration in the cat, which makes them drink more, and so their urines more diluted. I think there's a better way to do it. I would much, if it was my cat, I would be feeding a species appropriate diet, as we call it, high protein, high fat, low carb, and also providing it in a way that they're getting a sufficient moisture in on board.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And by doing that, you're going to prevent the problem. When you look at the diets that are available for, it's just urinary care. It is complex on which one is better than the other. And some are made for what we call stress bladders and such. Yeah. But we can achieve the same thing by feeding a raw food.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: So I would much rather be going that route and feeding something better for my cat. 

Amy Castro: Okay, so, let me ask you this. So I, and I've already followed your advice, from just our previous conversation about, because my cats had no problem switching to canned food. They love it. And so at least, we've made that transition with my cat that's specifically on a special diet for prevention of her bladder stones.

 Amy Castro: When I go back in for an exam and my vet. So, are we still eating the X, Y, Z diet or what are we feeding? They're always ask you what you're feeding. And I'm, it's always like, ah, how, what happens when I say, well, I'm making my own food now, or I'm not feeding that prescription diet that you wrote me the prescription for. I'm basically going against your advice and doing something completely different. 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Yeah, there can be a lot of when you're dealing with your veterinarian parental pressure, on what you should be feeding. And I I'm going to get throw out a few thoughts here, and you can, where are these land, people can decide which one they want to go with. First off, I have a problem with doctors, and I'm going to say medical doctors, veterinarians, whatever, profiting from what they prescribe. In, in my practice, we got rid of all the prescription foods. Cause for number one, I didn't believe in them. And then what I was able to do then was say, Hey, we should be looking at changing the food.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: This is the next option for you and this will be an improvement over what you're doing. And when I make that recommendation, I'm, it's not because I'm going to line my pockets by selling you the food off my shelf. Okay?  So that's the, that's the, that's the first thing. There's a conflict of interest there. Which I think is going to eventually come back to bite veterinarians. There's, we're going to have to have more options here, but the other side is this. If you go in and see the right veterinarian, you're going to get the right advice. And what I mean by there is that, and certainly in I created a conference back in January, it's called Holistic Vets Speak Out, and none of them, suggested commercial food of any type. Period. That was it. So why is that? It's because they want to promote the health of the animal. So what it means is that if, if you, as a client who came in to see me, I would be telling you that, gee, your cat has had a bladder problem. What we want to be able to do to turn this around and prevent it from coming back is to feed this type of food.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: You know, and adding water or whatever, whatever we're going to do, and that's going to be the safeguard for you going forward. But if you're going and seeing the same veterinarian who's got the food on the shelf behind him that says that you should be feeding this food right here, rather than giving you any other options, then you're going to need to do it is to get educated.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And that is find out what is the appropriate food, what should we be feeding these guys? And rather than following the education provided by the big companies, which is what the veterinarians rely on, then you're going to be getting education from veterinarians that like, who have actually gone beyond that and gotten to find out what's the healthier food for dogs and cats. And that's what you want to do. And unfortunately Yeah, this is, I mean, this is a similar, the same thing in, in people land as, you just mentioned, and that is that, gee, what is, and this is the key, what is the right diet for people? And what you're going to find is that, let's say, let's say for example, I decided to go on a totally raw keto diet or something like that.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: And then I went to see my MD. And he says, oh, so what, what's your, this is if your MD would even ask this, because they don't. But if your MD actually asks, so what are you eating these days? Because he's not in, he's not, doesn't want to sell a diet, so he is not interested in asking you and he also doesn't want to open that can of worms. But, if you ask me and then I say, oh, I'm on this raw keto diet that I read about on the internet and. I think it's going to make me lose weight, put on muscle and all this stuff, and he just looks at me and rolls his eyes. That's the end of the conversation. Right there, right?

Dr. Jeff Grognet: Yeah. And but the other side is I could go in and say, Hey, I've decided to go vegetarian. You know, and, and you're going to get the same type of pushback. And that is, well, if you're going vegetarian, you got to make sure you're keeping your protein up and you got to be taking these supplements and all this stuff. Right?

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: So, it’s not that, it's not clean cut in human land either. 

Amy Castro:  Hmm. Yeah, it’s true.  

 Dr. Jeff Grognet:  Yeah, so the, the way to do that is to become educated in what your cat or dog really needs and how to provide that food. 

Amy Castro: Okay, great. All right. So I feel like, no conversation and then I think this will be our kind of final point here, no conversation about nutrition and pets. Could occur without talking about the issue of dilated cardiomyopathy and the, the headlines that were screaming about the, the foods that you shouldn't feed your pet, and the lists that were handed out to people that said, don't feed these brands or don't feed these types of foods and it, that are still perpetuated today That, these issues. So what's, what's the truth about, DCM  and dogs?

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Okay, so the real

Amy Castro: In a nutshell, I know it's a big issue, but 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Yeah, if you've got, yeah. When you're talking about DCM and dogs and grain-free foods, have you got half an hour?

 Amy Castro: Right. I know, I know.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: So the talking point, the summary points to this, it was created in 2018 by the FDA where they actually pinpointed certain diets that were supposedly making dogs prone to dilated cardiomyopathy, and what it became was a war against what they call Beg diets, and that is boutique exotic, grain free. I had this big feeling and if somebody hadn't come up with the Beg moniker, it wouldn't have the traction that it did. Somebody came up with that. And the evidence that we have now, and I'm going to jump right to present date, is that, and this came out in a paper last year, which surprisingly, but not surprisingly, didn't have very much press at all. 

Amy Castro: Yeah, what happened to that?

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: What, yeah, what happened in that paper is that they showed that the assumptions that were made originally were cherry picked as against small food companies and companies that made grain-free diets. And so they were able to make these assumptions based on very specific picked data.

Dr. Jeff Grognet: And when you look at it from a, I call a scientific view, and you're looking at reviewing it all. The correlation is not there. And we've had this for the last, now two years, and that is every paper that comes out says that no, there is no correlation between grain-free diets and DCM in dogs. Period.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: That's it. Okay? But the problem we have right now is that there are still veterinarians who are pushing the mantra of grain-free causes heart disease. And the very simply, those veterinarians are not keeping up on the readings or they are keeping up on the readings, but they're only the readings supplied by the big pet food manufacturers.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: And they use that data to their advantage originally. In the paper that came out last year, grain-free foods and the grain-free ones are the, we're talking dry foods here. Not talking any of raw or anything like that, but the grain-free diets lost a market share of about 17 million in the year before.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Yeah. Whereas the grain filled diets gained a market share of 600 million. We're talking big numbers here, so it's worthwhile for them to keep this propaganda. And so we do not have a link very simply. There is no link between grain-free diets and heart disease, and so you can, you can certainly feed that knowing that it is no worse than the grain filled diets.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Mind you, of course, as you probably figured out, is that I wouldn't be feeding those diets anyway. I'd be feeding something a whole lot better for some real food whole food. And so that's the way I would be going myself. Or if you're feeding one of those foods, try it. Go half and half, start adding meat to it. Make it better. 

 Amy Castro: Yeah, that's great advice. Great advice. So any, any final thoughts or points that you want to make before we, before I wrap it up?  

Dr. Jeff Grognet: Well, the, the final thought really is that your cats, your dogs are depending on you for nutrition. And you're the one that gets to decide what goes in the bowl. So because of that, you're the one that's going to decide how healthy they are. And that's a big responsibility. And I always think of it as, gee, this is my two year old kid. What would I feed my kid? 

 Amy Castro: Yeah. I'm not putting coke in the baby bottle kind of thing. So, Why would I, would I feed my dog, my dog and cat junk?

 Amy Castro: And that's something that I think, it's so much easier to control an animal's food intake than it is a human being who can get in the car and get their own, get their own food. And so there's really, there's really no excuse for a dog to be obese and unhealthy and because we're a hundred percent controlling their access to food.

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: Exactly, and one other quick thought, and that is if you went to your pediatrician with your two-year-old and they said, oh, for optimal health on your little daughter, Candy, I want you to feed this bag of cereal with all kinds of additions to it. So it's nutritionally complete and balanced, and all you have to do is put this in your daughter's bowl three times a day and you're going to provide all the best nutrition. Are you going to be sticking with that pediatrician? 

 Amy Castro: Yeah, I'd be a little frightened, like, what's going on here? Right. That's a, that's a good point. Oh gosh, Dr. Jeff, you have opened my eyes and did even in before we did the podcast recording, I already started making changes for my pets. So I thank you so much for your excellent advice, and I think your advice to educate ourselves is probably the thing that I want everybody to, to really walk away with is, do your education, do your homework.

 Amy Castro: Nobody else can do that for you. And then take that and apply it and do what's very best for your pets within your capabilities. So I thank you so much for being here with us today and sharing your experience and expertise and knowledge. It's been very helpful. 

 Dr. Jeff Grognet: You're very welcome. Yeah, and getting the education, like I had a conference in January. I've got another one in May on cats, and there's going to be a whole slew of nutrition education in there. So that's where people need to get going. You need to watch that.

 Amy Castro:  And those are for the, for pet parents, not for veterinarians? Conferences?

Dr. Jeff Grognet: That’s for pet parents. Yeah.

 Amy Castro: Awesome. Okay. So we'll put the link up for more information about that because I think we've got a lot, we definitely have a lot of cat followers in our podcast here and for the animal rescue, so definitely I think a lot of people would be very interested in that. So thank you.  

Dr. Jeff Grognet: You’re welcome. Okay. Thanks for having me.

Amy Castro: All right. Well everyone, thank you so much for listening to another episode of Starlight Pet Talk. I hope you found this as eye-opening and educational as I did, and please make a point of sharing this podcast with your friends and family members who love their pets and want them to live long and healthy life.

Amy Castro: And like we say, every week, if you don't do anything else this week, give your pets a hug from us.

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